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interesting article on discs in the pro peloton

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Man of Lard | 9 years ago
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Isn't it about 15m/s to a standstill? (which is the thick end of 50km/h of deceleration)

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joemmo | 9 years ago
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There was this one time when I was radding the sick in the himalayas with the Atherton triplets, Ian Mackaskill and some other famous guys you roadie lot won't know when I saw a dude's face literally vapourise from like, the heat from his disc? Then forest caught fire and we had to be evacuated and some bears exploded and it also totally singed my leg hair by the way. Which is like, another thing you waxers won't understand.

This totally happened, right, except it was just me and I had lifted my bike over a farmers gate and stopped for mars bar and the disc was still a bit warm and I said ouch but now its fine.

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mrmo | 9 years ago
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hampstead_bandit, that maybe the case, i will agree it doesn't happen that often been riding MTBs for 20ish years as well, it does happen. would it happen more in a close peleton maybe???

And yes one was a standing around and disc rested on calf moment.

I don't really think it is a reason to ban them as it is rare, just one of those things to consider.

As for cuts, bladed spokes on modern wheels are probably as dangerous.

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hampstead_bandit | 9 years ago
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@mrmo

only time I have seen it in 20+ years of disc brake mountain biking was in Whistler, Canada.

Riding with Doddy from MBUK Magazine, doing the Garbanzo Zone down into Whistler Bike Park which is 25-30 minute constant descent down insanely steep terrain.

We got to the bottom of the bike park next to lifts, stopped, heard a sizzling noise and a yelp from Doddy who now had a lovely rotor brand on his left calf! Actually looked very cool like a cattle brand / tattoo.

I've seen more injuries caused by disc brake rotors to absent minded bike mechanics whilst bike is being worked on, on a bikestand - including sharp cuts, and one guy loosing a finger tip whilst working on his bike in a car park at a DH race in poor light conditions

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crazy-legs | 9 years ago
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Quote:

If discs were so good for the pro riders, explain the poor take-up with elite CX racers?

Cost and availability.
Pro CXers have about 6 bikes each (at World Cup level) and each bike will have a couple of sets of wheels at least.
There simply isn't the mass market availability yet to supply that level of support. And they're pros anyway, if their brakes clog up they simply swap bikes and leave it to the mechanic to sort it all out! As with road discs, it's going to be an innovation that is more aimed at the privateer racer rather than the elites.

Quote:

Seen a few mtbers with disc rotor brands. It can happen.

More usually at the bottom of a long Alpine descent when the brake-dragger dismounts to boast about the gnar shredded and the lines pinned on the way down and inadvertently stands against the rotor.  24

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surly_by_name replied to crazy-legs | 9 years ago
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crazy-legs wrote:
Quote:

If discs were so good for the pro riders, explain the poor take-up with elite CX racers?

Cost and availability.
Pro CXers have about 6 bikes each (at World Cup level) and each bike will have a couple of sets of wheels at least.

There's also the tendency of the drop barred end of the sport to cling to tradition. I was riding a fat tubed aluminium mountain bike with an inch and an eighth steerer and an aheadset while the majority of the pro peleton were happily tooling around on ferrous frames with quill stems and inch steerer tubes.

CX is catching up, mostly via the kids. Wout Van Aert was on disc equipped superprestige at Hasselt on Saturday (although I think he was swapping between cantis and discs during the race and he is quoted on Cyclingnews as saying the "new" discs slowed him down through corners, which is a bit mysterious and off message for a SRAM sponsored rider) and MvdP at Overijse yesterday (like Lars VdH, MvdP appears to ride discs all the time). Even Nys spent some of yesterday's Druivencross on discs (although didn't help him make up for what appeared to be tyre problems in first lap).

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monty dog | 9 years ago
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The crashing in races issue is spurious - ever seen the damaged a chainring can do when it comes to hitting flesh, or should we ban those too? More concerning is two-speed braking, particularly those using caliper brakes and carbon rims in the wet.

If discs were so good for the pro riders, explain the poor take-up with elite CX racers?

I had a disc-shod road/CX bike custom-built in titanium 10 years ago - it was a good all-rounder but not great at anything: It was too heavy for CX in comparison to my 17lb carbon-framed race bike, and it was too heavy as a 'fast' road bike. Granted there's a better choice in lightweight hubs and brakes plus affordable, carbon rims these days.

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fukawitribe replied to monty dog | 9 years ago
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monty dog wrote:

If discs were so good for the pro riders, explain the poor take-up with elite CX racers?

The take up in the US is not so poor - but regardless of where in the world you are, they are expensive to fit to a team especially as there are times and conditions when people prefer rim brakes.. so you're suddenly dealing with a lot more combinations of equipment if you just double up. Even in the US there was quite a bit of (quite valid) criticism of them when they first came in - as single sided, cable pull brakes were pretty much all anyone had.. and they could seriously suck as races went on. Things seem to be improving significantly with the widespread availability of twin-sided, hydraulic setups - so it will be interesting to see what happens now in Europe.

There is also an element of cross being seen as still a sport of traditions - which discs rather go against - although how much that might actually effect a pro team I don't know... probably not a massive amount.

What few comments from professional riders actually using discs i've heard or read have more or less been positive across the board regarding performance - but that doesn't mean they necessarily want to use them. That's people for you... thankfully.

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OnTheRopes | 9 years ago
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For me, who races and trains on road bikes and does occasional mountain biking and can see how great discs can be in the right circumstances, I just don't need them.
In years of riding training and racing I don't think I have ever crashed as a result of not having disc brakes, my rims last just fine and modern carbon rims now have hard coatings.
I also just don't need to have to shell out a load of dosh on a new bike right now when there is not the need.

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rogermerriman | 9 years ago
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the riders being burnt by disks in a crash doesn't sound likely.

brakes get hot, on steep twisty descents, and so on. this watching the pro races isn't where you get pile up's which tend to be, either at or the build up to a sprint finish, or rolling along and some one touches a wheel.

in both cases the disk should be frankly cold.

Compatibility sounds is more of a issue but by no means unsolvable.

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mrmo replied to rogermerriman | 9 years ago
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rogermerriman wrote:

the riders being burnt by disks in a crash doesn't sound likely.

Seen a few mtbers with disc rotor brands. It can happen.

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Jimmy Ray Will replied to rogermerriman | 9 years ago
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rogermerriman wrote:

the riders being burnt by disks in a crash doesn't sound likely.

brakes get hot, on steep twisty descents, and so on. this watching the pro races isn't where you get pile up's which tend to be, either at or the build up to a sprint finish, or rolling along and some one touches a wheel.

in both cases the disk should be frankly cold.

Again, from the pro races I have ridden, I have never come down in a sprint finish... crashes tend to be in and around corners or as mentioned, 'just riding along', but will always, always include some desperate and heavy hauling of the brakes before impact!

How hot will a disk get from that single heavy application? Not sure.

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rogermerriman replied to Jimmy Ray Will | 9 years ago
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Jimmy Ray Will wrote:
rogermerriman wrote:

the riders being burnt by disks in a crash doesn't sound likely.

brakes get hot, on steep twisty descents, and so on. this watching the pro races isn't where you get pile up's which tend to be, either at or the build up to a sprint finish, or rolling along and some one touches a wheel.

in both cases the disk should be frankly cold.

Again, from the pro races I have ridden, I have never come down in a sprint finish... crashes tend to be in and around corners or as mentioned, 'just riding along', but will always, always include some desperate and heavy hauling of the brakes before impact!

How hot will a disk get from that single heavy application? Not sure.

not very or it would overheat rapidly when descending, rolling down the Blorange after the TOB had come though, even after lots of speed up, slow down drag the brakes etc, following vans/bikes etc down. barely warm at the bottom.

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mrmo replied to Jimmy Ray Will | 9 years ago
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Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

How hot will a disk get from that single heavy application? Not sure.

not sure, but there are documented cases of the aluminium cores of Shimano Ice-tech rotors melting, so it must be possible to get the rotors HOT.

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fukawitribe replied to mrmo | 9 years ago
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mrmo wrote:
Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

How hot will a disk get from that single heavy application? Not sure.

not sure, but there are documented cases of the aluminium cores of Shimano Ice-tech rotors melting, so it must be possible to get the rotors HOT.

Yes it's staggeringly easy to get them bloody hot, especially giving it beans - or in my case Off-road Death Grip Of Fear - downhill. That said the newer rotors in particular (e.g. Freeza) are supposed to shed heat very quickly.

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Jimmy Ray Will | 9 years ago
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As someone that does race, and has found himself at the bottom of a number of big pile ups, my only real concern with the use of discs is the chance of injury argument.

There is a difference between your average fall at a 3/4 cat crit and pro racing. In the latter you are in much tighter, larger groups, and often the circuit is barriered in... which means that you all end up in a big pile on the floor.

So whilst I think the threat is low, I think the chance of a burn or a slice is real and should be investigated before we move forward.

Other than that, the only other thing is the faff... I love to polish a bike... cleaning the MTB is a constant case of contamination avoidance because of the disc pads.

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TheHound | 9 years ago
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Braking disparity.

Formula 1 Valencia 2010 - Mark Webber Huge Crash: http://youtu.be/nyMLLnQIWho

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jollygoodvelo replied to TheHound | 9 years ago
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TheHound wrote:

Braking disparity.

Formula 1 Valencia 2010 - Mark Webber Huge Crash: http://youtu.be/nyMLLnQIWho

In fairness that's nothing to do with the brakes. Webber didn't appreciate how much faster his car was in the slipstream of the Lotus (and perhaps Kovalainen lifted off realising he was going to get overtaken anyway). Neither were near the braking zone, which for an F1 car is only about 100m even at that speed.

Jimmy Ray Will wrote:

How hot will a disk get from that single heavy application? Not sure.

Not too difficult to calculate - specific heat capacity of steel is about 0.5 kJ per Kg per deg C. So to raise 100g of disc by 1 deg C takes 0.05 kJ, to raise it from 20 deg C to 100 deg C takes 0.05 * 80 = 4 kJ. Now, bear in mind that the pad takes half the friction heat generated, you need a retardation of 8kJ to get 4kJ into the disc. So you need to work out what speed equates to an 8kJ total retardation for an ~80kg rider/bike combination (assuming no heat lost to the air, aero drag discounted, tyre grip and ability of the rider to pull the brake lever assumed to be infinite).

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arfa | 9 years ago
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If you race, you have the UCI rules to abide by, end of discussion.
If you don't race, you're mad not to buy disc brakes where you have choice on the cost of trashing your rims alone

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rnick | 9 years ago
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With discs, bike companies have discovered a great new way of selling us a new bike to replace our "old outdated" bikes.
What the pro riders use is irrelevant - look to F1 motorsport, you drive what the rule makers say you can - be it V6, V10, petrol, hybrid etc and the rule makers are driven by the wishes of the major sponsors.
The real reason against discs has to be the noise or more precisely the risk of noise.....a trip to any trail centre usually includes the sounds of tortured pad on metal. Now how would that go down on the Sunday club run??

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massspike replied to rnick | 9 years ago
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rnick wrote:

What the pro riders use is irrelevant - look to F1 motorsport, you drive what the rule makers say you can - be it V6, V10, petrol, hybrid etc and the rule makers are driven by the wishes of the major sponsors.

The thing I like about cycling is you can ride what the pros ride. OK you need some disposable cash but you aren't blocked from riding with their gear as fast as you can. I can see why the manufacturers are worried about the looming disconnect between the peloton and the avid cyclist. You already have the minimum weight restrictions divide, tubular vs clincher/tubeless tires, etc. If you add brake differences to the pile, then the consumer may start to lose interest in what the pros use which wont be good for sponsorship's. Golf would be the counterpoint to cycling -- every new innovation the pros use ends up on the retail shelf ("what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday").

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the infamous grouse | 9 years ago
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disc brakes don't increase cornering speed.

if you leave your braking point too late for a corner and subsequently crash into the person in front, it's your fault.

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mrmo | 9 years ago
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if you commute in all weathers discs make some sense, saves the rims wearing out, but you do have to be VERY careful about spraying the GT85 about it will destroy your brake pads by contamination.

As for discs v cantis, Magura's are more powerful, have a think about why many trials bikes still use them, but all rim brakes suffer in wet weather. Off road with mud, discs make more sense because rims get covered in crap and wear out. Personally I got through a set of 217s in 8 months.

There have been a few cases of ice-tech discs melting, which isn't really a good sign, pros might not use brakes and might not have a habit of dragging them, thus keeping the temperatures down, but "normal" riders aren't pros, either the brakes cope with being dragged or they don't, the rider isn't going to change.

On a race bike meh, it makes f'all difference. I would suggest in a few years everyone will be on discs because that is what will be available. Any other excuse is just that.

Ask why the industry has pretty much decided to scrap 26" mtbs in one year. Nothing like planned obsolesce.

Final point, go on any MTB forum and you will find the "my brakes don't work question" followed by bleed them comments. cable caliper brakes just work, disc brakes are more faff, they do need more care. And if the brakes say SRAM run away they will be s***.

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bike_food | 9 years ago
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I don't understand why anyone really gives a shit.

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surly_by_name | 9 years ago
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Less facetiously. This debate has been had in mountain bikes already and disc brakes won a crushing victory for the very simple reason that they are better. If pros can't use them, so what. I am not a pro and all I can think is that it sucks being them.

Wheel changes - a significant proportion of the time (at least based on my televisual experiences of races) the team will change the whole bike. And I imagine that with a small amount of practice you can change a 15mm through axle in exactly the same time as it takes to change a bike with a regular QR. Honestly, with the new generation of through axles, you throw the QR lever (or press a button), unscrew the axle and it pulls out and hey presto the wheel is free. It isn't any more complicated or (with a bit of practice) time consuming than unscrewing a regular QR to clear the lawyer tabs/undoing the QR on your rim brakes.

Pile ups - I don't buy this. You don't have to break at different rates just because you can. Discs offer much better modulation (in my experience and it seems to be generally agreed). Are we supposed to believe that pros won't be able to adapt their braking to disc brakes? They seem to manage to switch between SRAM/Shimano/Campag shifting without death. If you believe the marketing guff, ordinary road bike calipers have increased in efficiency/power by about a million percent over the past 5 years anyway. Why haven't we had a spate of brake related deaths in that time? Maybe discs will help avoid pile ups because you don't have to hurl the anchors on to quite the same on/off effect when someone goes down in front of you.

Razor sharp hot metal death circles - you would have thought that authorities would have banned these machines of death from use in downhilling if they were in fact as deadly as made out.

I have a very nice rim brake equipped road bike that I intend to keep riding for another 3 to 5 years while standards settle down and (hopefully) the frankly ludicrous cost of road hydros comes down. But I won't be buying any fancy new wheel sets in that period because at the end of it I fully expect that high end disc brake equipped road bikes will be ubiquitous. (Although in the meantime I have going long on a SRAM hydroR equipped cross bike.)

I know internet forums are about sharing your views, however ill informed (and god knows I am as guilty as the next person - alright, perhaps not that guilty - of sounding off about something I have little experience about). But I really would encourage anyone who feels like expressing a view about disc brakes and who hasn't ridden a bike equipped with hydros (doesn't have to be a road bike, mountain bike perfectly good for test purposes) to do so before saying anything.

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Chris James replied to surly_by_name | 9 years ago
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surly_by_name wrote:

Less facetiously. This debate has been had in mountain bikes already and disc brakes won a crushing victory for the very simple reason that they are better. If pros can't use them, so what......

I know internet forums are about sharing your views, ...But I really would encourage anyone who feels like expressing a view about disc brakes and who hasn't ridden a bike equipped with hydros (doesn't have to be a road bike, mountain bike perfectly good for test purposes) to do so before saying anything.

You seem to have slightly missed the point. You like discs, that's great. The original article was just about people from pro teams who also liked the technology but where unsure about its application at the moment in the pro peloton.

It is not is much that pros can't use discs, but that some do not want to when road racing.

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Paul J | 9 years ago
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All those going on about the power and modulation of disc brakes, and stopping power in the wet, are *utterly missing the point*. That's irrelevant to racing. What matters in racing is that your equipment is as good as your competitor's. Whether it's shit or not is irrelevant. Racers can race bikes with shit brakes (e.g. 70s or earlier?) or good, doesn't matter, they'll race.

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fukawitribe replied to Paul J | 9 years ago
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Paul J wrote:

All those going on about the power and modulation of disc brakes, and stopping power in the wet, are *utterly missing the point*. That's irrelevant to racing. What matters in racing is that your equipment is as good as your competitor's. Whether it's shit or not is irrelevant. Racers can race bikes with shit brakes (e.g. 70s or earlier?) or good, doesn't matter, they'll race.

Although I largely agree with you, interviews with riders i've seen in the past about braking/descents in the cold, wet or both make me think that some of them might actually appreciate something that is better in real terms as well. It's pretty irrelevant what we think though - it'll come in because some people / businesses want it in.

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surly_by_name | 9 years ago
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I am astounded by the number of pros who post about this subject on this forum and elsewhere. I mean, surely that must be the reason so many posts express concern (or even a view, frankly) about the impact of the introduction of disc brakes on the pro peleton? You are all the secret pros, I can't wait until you reveal your true identities, I've got my suspicions about a couple of you. (In some cases, your limited grasp of the English language suggests it's a second language, I am guessing one of you is a certain famous Spanish climber with a penchant for home grown steak and a signature victory salute!)

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KirinChris replied to surly_by_name | 9 years ago
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surly_by_name wrote:

I am astounded by the number of pros who post about this subject on this forum and elsewhere. I mean, surely that must be the reason so many posts express concern (or even a view, frankly) about the impact of the introduction of disc brakes on the pro peleton? You are all the secret pros, I can't wait until you reveal your true identities, I've got my suspicions about a couple of you. (In some cases, your limited grasp of the English language suggests it's a second language, I am guessing one of you is a certain famous Spanish climber with a penchant for home grown steak and a signature victory salute!)

Actually a lot of us race and the issues are much the same as for the pros - possibly worse as we are more likely to be in fields with a wider cross-section of abilities and experience.

For me the concern is partly the braking power but more the fear of discs in a big pile up. I'm not expecting disembowelment or severed heads, at least not more than once or twice per season, but I am expecting to see some nasty slices.

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