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Need help with first carbon bike
Hi guys,
Been lurking for a year while learning the ropes on my alloy btwin 105. Had a great year improving on my weekly club rides and a decent year at work so want to "invest" and upgrade to a nice carbon machine. I'm 35, 5,10, 80kg and getting fitter every week. Due to my weight and my lack of skill descending I want discs and I can't really see past the value of Canyon.
In looking at;
2018 Ultimate CF SL Disc 8.0, full new ultegra, dt swiss wheels 7.5kg £2600
2017 Ultimate CF SL Disc 9.0 Aero, older Ultegra, Mavic Cosmic Pro carbon aero wheels, carbon cockpit 7.9kg discounted to £2760
The 2018 I can get is cheaper, I can get in stage race blue which I love and reviews are that is pretty much faultless.
The 2017 has the carbon deep rims wheels and the aero cockpit which are worth the best part of £1000, they will probably make me go about zero mph faster but look very cool in my opinion, I can only get in stealth which is quite batman look but not first choice. I am also acutely aware of looking like a total knob if I get dropped while sporting deep rims. Really can't decide and am stuck!
I did also try to support my lbs and he is trying to sell me the Bianchi Aria Disc aero bike which is very cool but half a kilo heavier and really cheap wheels, I also think you really need to want a bianchi to pay that sort of money for them.
Please help me with your experienced opinions!
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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41 comments
Learn to descend first, you'll be a danger to yourself and other cyclists otherwise.
I'd suggest replacing your Tektro brakes immediately with 105 dual pivot brakes with cardridge pads. Then learn your limits properly, and not reply on harder braking!
Disc brakes can fade, terribly, see this recent story on Road.cc and especially the comments:
http://road.cc/content/news/232524-cyclist-screamed-%E2%80%9Cmy-brakes-h...
That's why you need to learn your limits and not just imagine you can brake your way out of trouble.
Anyway, enjoy the Canyon, I loved mine!
I too highly recommend 105 brakes, they don't cost too much and give a performance boost.
That article on the "brake failure", no one has actually confirmed if the genesis she was riding had rim or disc brakes. Moreover, there is nothing to suggest the brakes (rim disc or otherwise) failed - merely, the rider allegedly shouted her brakes had failed and the media has picked up on it.
You monster!
Most should get a 36/28 over most lumps and bumps - anything North of 20% may be tricky if you've already climbed and used your gears up
There is a premium on disc brake bikes these days. If keen on it, couple of suggestions from my side:
Racier bikes:
1) Super Six Evo disc Ultegra model - Evans had a deal on it.
2) Focus Izalco Max disc/Cayo disc 2017 models - Swift Cycles.
3) Spesh Tarmac Comp/Elite disc - Evans.
4) Cervelo R3 Disc.
5) Felt FR3/FR2 disc - Wiggle.
Endurance (lots of choices):
1) Cannondale Synapse.
2) Spesh Roubaix.
3) BMC Roadmachine.
4) Trek Domane.
5) Cervelo C3 Disc.
6) Wilier GTR SL Endurance
If it was my money, I'd go for Super Six Evo, Focus Izalco Max or Felt.
O
Thanks, I've gone for the canyon now but did have a look at the supersix, lookswise just doesn't really do it for me. Another one to look at was the Giant TCR which would have been my second choice, great frame and giants own carbon rims etc plus you do get the backup of the lbs.
I was mostly taking the piss but BTBS is so entrenched in his views I considered it worth a poke.
So entrenched that I mentioned a disc bike as an alternative, okay whatever.
You mentioned the need for x, I countered that with statements of fact, you didn't want to try to counter what I said despite your 'advice' to a relative newcomer to cycling being unhelpful and putting them in a more detrimental environment by suggesting they need a plastic hat.
What a pity this has turned into (yet another) debate about discs vs calipers. There's no law that says you have to buy a bike with discs (or calipers). MTBs... never looked back, CX bikes... never looked back, road bikes - in two years time this will have all gone away, the only people disadvantaged will be the rim makers as fewer rims will need replacing. If you are running carbon wheels this is a no-brainer - carbon rim brakes are never, ever going to be good/confidence inspiring in the wet.
Yep, exactly what I though
If you want discs, have discs. If you want rims, have rims. Just don't start telling people what they should/shouldn't have - particularly when one type performs significantly better in pretty much all conditions.
Oh, and if anyone is worried about disc brakes being less aero, they really don't have any more drag than rim brakes, nothing significant anyway.
I understand everyones comments on discs, a lot tend to be from skilled cyclists, but from my experience of getting back on the bike a year ago after not riding since at school I feel they are an advantage. I find if descending on the hoods its just dangerous as you cant get enough pressure on the levers if needed, and even in the drops I have left it a bit too late going into a bend and ended up going wide and on the wrong side of the road. Does anyone need digital tv or radio when analogue will do, or you can still listen to music in mono but I prefer stereo. Do I need them? No, Do I want them? Yes
You're right on all accounts!
Have what you want (disc brakes do feel way better IMO) - and I, previously, couldn't stand the idea of a disc brake road bike; then I rode Ultgera disc brakes and found out how much nice they are than the Ultegra rim brakes I have!
I have gone and pulled the trigger on the 2017 aero this morning, hoping for delivery end of the week so I can get out on the weekend!
Out of interest what gearing have you got on the ultimate? Past year i've been riding 52/36 with a 11-32, I would need to change out to a med cage to put on the 32 cassette I have on the back, not sure it is worth it.
Nice one!
I have 52/36 with 11-28, fine on my Canyon as I use it for faster rides. I have no problem getting up the steep bit of Cheddar Gorge.
If you eventually upgrade to R8000, even the short cage rear mech can take a 30t (I think).
I've used an 11-32 on my 2017 Canyon Ultimate SLX (non-disc, 6800) for serious climbing days (Cingles de Mont Ventoux) without problem. I also swapped out the cranks from 52/36 to 50/34 at the same time. There were no problems with this, and I didn't need to adjust the b-screw or add any chain links - it was even fine with a fully crossed chain (50 front - 32 back). All swapped back now, but I think they 52/36 with 11-32 would also work fine. I guess there could be minor differences between the design of the disc version, but I think the compatibility relates to how much lower the derailleur hanger is below the axle.
Enjoy the new bike!
Thanks, I think as you made the chainrings smaller and the cassette bigger at same time it was ok, I think 32 on back witht the 52/36 would be a bit of a push, would def need to extend chain, and would stretch the derailleur in big big or too loose in small small, for the sake of £50 I will prob just buy a long cage, if I bought the new R8000 it can even handle 34.
enix [853 posts] 9 hours ago 0 likes
As has been said - you don't need discs. I've used rim brakes for decades and they work fine for me and I do descend faster than most.
That's because you can't slow down on rim brakes
Rim brakes work fine on alloy rims even mountain descent s. Add rain or wet conditions. Disc brakes work better
As has been said - you don't need discs. I've used rim brakes for decades and they work fine for me and I do descend faster than most.
Aero bikes look pretty but there's no real world benefit - and I have one.
Deep rims wheels can be a bit of a pain in the bum. Recent years have been so windy that I'm happy to lose a bit of aero speed for a bit more stability in side winds. That's what I've done anyway. I save deep rims for racing on now.
Weight isn't that important unless all you do is climb hills and I'd you do that why have aero wheels ?
You don't notice your bike being faster when you've drunk 500ml of fluid from the water bottle do you ?
Aero cockpits look nice but you need to be sure you have the set up right. Separate stems and bars don't cost you any speed but can help with comfort.
Er, yes brake type does affect thinking time.
If you come to expect to be able to brake at x distance away then you brake at that point or even later as a sporting cyclist (even as a commuter).
If you imagine that you can brake later because you have discs/better brakes then you shorten the thinking time to an event that may unexpectedly happen before you intend to brake - a car pulling out of a junction in front, a bend that comes up quicker than you expected or was tighter or an object that is in the road that wouldn't be expected to be there.
So you've allowed yourself less time/distance than previously (one of the positives promoted is to be able to brake/reduce speed in a shorter distnce right) ergo your thinking time IS reduced because of what you percieve to be the braking distance based on the 'improved' braking.
Humans can only make decisions in a finite amount of time, that's why you still see panic braking in the pro ranks and locked wheels/crashes. The disc brake itself comparatively does brake somewhat better in some very narrow set of circumstances but the grip of the tyres is overcome quite easily by rim brakes and as I've said people brake later with discs and thus won't be any safer with them.
What BTBS said, except the bit about safety, discs stop quicker in the wet and modulate better...
Oh and get a helmet!
Braking in the wet is limited by tyre grip and the ability to think/react about when to brake (& having the time to do so) and having a decent set up. Discs shorten the thinking time as riders think they can brake later, discs aren't safer and there's no evidence to support that at all, they also go off when braking hard whilst descending, something the OP mentions he does and isn't great at so could well be on the brakes more than some. Modulation, well that's only ever a problem for those that don't wish to learn how to brake properly, it's no way to learn/get better!
Why a helmet, no-one, not even the pros need helmets, they've been proven in racing circles to bring about more deaths, more crashes and more injuries despite other improvements on course and general H&S/protocol improvements.
The OP admits to not being a great descender, over the last 2 decades the wearing of helmets have proven to be a massive problem for people on bikes who then ride beyond their own skill level and the ability of their bikes and come a cropper time and time and time again the helmet not making a jot of difference to the stats but an awful lot of helmet saved my life/saved me from serious injury stories. It certainly isn't going to improve their riding skills nor their safety at any level, quite the opposite.
Why do people advocate helmets when all they do is endanger sporting cyclists even more than without!
Brakes don't affect thinking time. Thinking time is down to human performance and reactions.
Disc brakes are vastly better in the wet, particularly compared to carbon rims.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs
Rim brakes suffer from brake fade much sooner than disc brakes. Both disc and rim brakes suffer from brake fade and will fail eventually when pushed beyond their limits.
Disc brakes are not essential, rim brakes are more than sufficient. Disc brakes don't wear carbon rims either (if that's of concern).
I have a bike with Ultegra rim brakes and a bike with Ultegra disc brakes, I find it much easier to stop quickly using disc brakes as the reduced braking force and better modulation makes it much easier to not lock the rear wheel. Personal preference really.
EDIT: Yeah, I also agree that weight is no reason to need disc brakes - personal preference again
I imagine people advocate wearing helmets because, contrary to your claims, they can protect your skull and hence brain in the event of an accident. Not all accidents - they may not help much if a lorry crushes your head - but they will in many circumstances.
It’s not just common sense (ask a friend to hit you on the head with a mallet, wearing a helmet and then not wearing one, and compare the two experiences).
There is now methodologically robust research that has demonstrated the protection that a helmet can provide compared with not wearing one.
But, of course, it’s a personal decision about whether to wear one or not.
I will be sticking to my own personal research, which is that if you are on a bike you can fall off, and if you fall off you can hit your head on tarmac if you are lucky or worse the curb, if you hit your head you can break your skull, have brain damage or die. So I will stick to wearing a plastic lid.
Discs aren't going to improve your descending skills nor make you any faster or safer.
As for using weight as a reason for needing discs, I'm a shade over 100kg at the age of 48 and 107kg at my biggest, never had issues descending fast and I've never ridden on anything but rim brakes since I started road riding in the mid 80s (I was 82kg when I was 16), never not had enough braking power, funnily enough nor have pro racers.
You're relatively new to cycling, clearly you want to go faster/improve but have a really long hard think about your motives for going disc. I love the colour, not sure about the brand personally and havenever used them.
If you do consider a rim braked bike you could go for a discounted Giant TCR Advanced 2 (Available in blue), strip the components off and have £1700 to spend on whatever kit you want plus the money from flogging off the 105 drivetrain and stock wheels so close to £2k, you could buy a lot of kit for that.
Also the Giant Advanced Pro 1 disc is ball park to the Canyon in price and available in blue.
good luck whatever you buy.
"Skittish in crosswinds" ? An aero frame adds less than 1% of side area to the total area of a bike and cyclist. Except for those frames that are nearly completely filled in (triathlon beasts) my experience of riding aero frames (palmerston north, NZ... some years the windiest city on the planet) is that there is negligible difference between an aero frame and standard frame when compared sith the same wheels on.
The Bianchi looks fab, but the canyon is great value for money
I really buy into all the marketing hype, I know I do and I love it also, love researching and having the latest gear etc. Just for the fun of it.
Your comment proves the point that every bit of gear is within a couple of % of each other, we should all just buy whatever we like for fun. I don't even think it makes a difference in the tour, if someone puts a bit more power down the bike is largely irrelevant!
How windy is it where you live? Crosswinds will be an absolute bugger with the Aero. But the frame isn't too aero.
Worth thinking about.
Yes did consider that but I think I will be fine riding around herts, beds and bucks, what we consider a hurricane is probably a light breeze in other places of the UK!
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