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Why haven't small wheels caught on?

I've noticed something about most cyclists since I've been cycle commuting across Bristol.

Most cyclists aren't dedicated road cyclists, in fact, they are just trying to get from place to place. I've noticed a surprising amount of people driving to the outskirts of the city before cycling the remaining distance to the centre. I've also noticed a lot of people riding dutch style step through bikes.

I can't work out why small wheels haven't caught on. They are far less cumbersome than 700c, so much easier to put in your car. They are much easier to store (in an office, at home or at cycle racks). Obviously, I've seen a few Bromptons around, but they retail at around £1000 and weigh a silly amount due to the folding.

The only disadvantage I can see is they don't give such a comfortable ride, which could be very easily solved by rubber dampers.

Moulton came up with this design in the 60's, I'm struggling to work out why it hasn't caught on for city commuter cyclists (which make up a surprisingly large portion of cyclists).

I'd certainly find a small wheel bike much easier for when I drive halfway and cycle half way on my commute...

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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39 comments

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gazza_d | 6 years ago
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There's three main reasons imo why small wheeled bikes have a bit of a bad/niche reputation.

1. most small wheelers are folding bikes and are either cheap heavy and crap, or expensive like Birdys, Bromptons, Moultons. Most who buy small wheeled folders do so for short hops from the train etc, or from the car boot, so buy cheap uns, then complain how they are rubbish.

2. UCI etc regulations banned small wheel bikes from competition in the 60s, which is why "racers" are basically fixed around the same 27/700c size. Mountain bikes came from cruiser/utility cycles which tended to be 26" although still derived from the UCI biggish wheels and 3 stick frame basic design. It's diversified a little but stayed roughly the same. So that's what is in the shops.

3. Raleigh. Moulton basically invented the small wheeled bike and it was almost perfect. It took all the skills of Raleigh to strip out the suspension (which made the head tubes fail), replace with stupidly fat bouncy draggy tyres. They sorted the frame out by using offcuts from north sea oil rigs.  

I've ridden Moultons for over 20 years and love them to bits. The design makes them a bit love hate though. They are the stiffest frame I have ever ridden, but the suspension makes them feel compliant and comfortable. It's like riding a velvet covered I beam. Besides the ride, I find the actual design appealing, the horizontal cross member is just the right height to carry and is the CoG. the racks are designed to keep the luggage suspended and centred on the CoG again, and unlike most folders the ride is not overlly twitchy or cramped unlike a lot of other small wheeled bikes, although they do handle quicker than a big wheeler.  

They are superb allround bikes, and excellent for all day riding, and mixed surface riding and  commuting. The only thing they don;t like is soft surfaces like, deep mud, sand or gravel. 

I can easily fit the same width tyres to my Moulton as I can my conventional road bikes and be as quick, or wider knobblies for off road riding

Moulton was the first to put a full suspension MTB into production with the Moulton ATB. The design of which evolved into the Moulton APB and then the TSR.  The design may seem dated against todays moulded carbon bikes, but they hail from a time when the only alternative to steel was thin alloy pipes glued into lugs.

Moultons have held many speed records, and are used successfully in Triatlons.

My Moultons weigh pretty much the same as my 531 conventional tourer. 

 

 

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hawkinspeter replied to gazza_d | 6 years ago
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gazza_d wrote:

Moultons have held many speed records, and are used successfully in Triatlons.

I was skeptical of the performance of small wheel bikes, but after a bit of googling and reading, I'm fairly impressed.

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Canyon48 replied to hawkinspeter | 6 years ago
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hawkinspeter wrote:

gazza_d wrote:

Moultons have held many speed records, and are used successfully in Triatlons.

I was skeptical of the performance of small wheel bikes, but after a bit of googling and reading, I'm fairly impressed.

Crazy, isn't it. Small wheels produce far less aerodynamic drag as does a smaller frame.

Not only that, if small wheel bikes had received as much refinement as normal 700c bikes, we could, quit conceivably, have small wheel bikes that are tipping the scales at around 8kg with full "suspension"(dampers), costing no more than a 700c bike. But, alas, the UCI banned small wheel bikes and they never quite took off.

A small wheel bike seems ideal for so many city commuters who have limited storage space at both work and home.

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fukawitribe replied to hawkinspeter | 6 years ago
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hawkinspeter wrote:

gazza_d wrote:

Moultons have held many speed records, and are used successfully in Triatlons.

I was skeptical of the performance of small wheel bikes, but after a bit of googling and reading, I'm fairly impressed.

Much fastness..

http://www.culturecycles.com/2012/06/1988-hutch-hpv-superbike-bmx/

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cyclisto | 6 years ago
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I like big and heavy wheels. I feel much safer on bikes with such wheels as they are more stable maybe to the gyro effect but I don't know the exact physics.

When riding a bicycle with smaller wheels, it feels as stable as riding a 700c bicycle at very slow speeds in terms of being easy to balance.

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Boatsie | 6 years ago
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Twenty.. Twenty five years ago I was riding a lot. My mate 'the flying Flea, ' was a bright bloke with not much formal language training.
He was going on about fitting drop bars to a mtb and commuting.
His old man was pretty stoked with his hybrid (wide 700c) ride. Being young I declined the challenge because the tracks we rode would destroy 700c rims and the road time I might as well stay on a mtb or bmx and find a thin wheel roadie because his hybrid was just too slow.
Anyway, years later and budget minded, just about to finish my build of a dropbar hybrid (common now aka gravel bike). If my body was smaller mtbs would work well.
From experience, bmx 24 inch would stay true after 10+metre jumps, mtb 26 inch would survive 10 footers and 700s were crap unless wanting fast on a flat track.
They're all good, thank you much regarding moulton as I never knew these existed. An old friend is looking at bikes and was considering a girl frame to ease entry upon. I'll be informing him that Moultons exist. Glad to read that they ride nicely.

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JamieT | 6 years ago
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My tuppence
I was given a test ride 6 weeks ago on two Moultons. We rode from Bradford on Avon to Bath and back using the canal path and two tunnels and part by road. What most impressed me was how unshaken I was after going over a pothole. To test this I then spent some considerable energy hunting out the largest potholes and cycling through them. The result was remarkable comfort which only those who have ridden a Moulton would know. My comparison was my Giant Defy with 700c wheels which certainly jolts you if you happen upon even the smallest pothole.
I am not saying buy a Moulton every time just expressing, through experience, one aspect of exactly what you can expect from a Moulton.

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Boatsie | 6 years ago
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Griff500.
Look my broken English hard to understand.
Like what you wrote regarding easy long ride stick with 700c.
My thoughts. They track better. Their angular momentum assists their tracking because they resist forces such that their momentum/inertia remains as such. Larger wheels do this better than smaller wheels with identical parameter point masses. This inertia/momentum holds true when cornering when side wards forces tempt the tyre to skid yet the wheels momentum resists such with it's response such as no thank you because I'm travelling this way.
Although smaller the wider smaller wheels might weigh more thus increasing their momentum yet the translation at the fulcrum is from a narrower radius and being a measurement of square that has a large effect on the wheels inertia; the wheels want to maintain track. The side wards temptation to skid can be reduced by increasing grip which is often found using wider tyres.
I can't write plain English, been awake 20 hours.
Would you trust 28mm tread on a 20 inch coming down grade through sweepers?
Hence just typing too much, smaller wheel need more grip.
I think the Moulton looks fantastic as a comfortable throw in a car and drive half way and ride any road with because (I'm guessing now) the tyres are wider.
Looks great per that aspect of cycling. Eg. Storage, easy to ride, stronger wheels? Comfortable ride on wider tyres, light weight, transportable, list goes on.
I hope I helped. I had a similar argument with a racing car manufacturer many years ago. 20inch vs 700c. End result. Stiff ship enjoy what you use. Self preservation might be key factor as to where the bikes get ridden.

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kevvjj | 6 years ago
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For me, the reason I got rid of my small wheeled folder was the issue of flats. A bolted on three speed hub is a nightmare to fix a flat roadside. For a third the cost of something like a Brompton I can get a decent commuter with quick release axles.

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Boatsie | 6 years ago
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I don't see why the Moulton wouldn't be more comfortable than a lot of the 700c road bikes.
At 100psi the bike to me is rigid. Are those smaller tyres on the Moulton wider with lower psi? Tow paths are fantastically cushioned using 2 inch across 24inch at (not sure but it's hard is near 30 or 40 maybe 50 psi). I lose 10 minutes every hour and a half to my road bike so it's not that much slower commuting on the smooth roads. Like mentioned above, fatties aren't always higher resistance especially when on a bike that can be lifted with a finger. Moultons only 7kg??? You're already 4-5 kg lighter than my road bikes. Less punctures too is high probability.
As per angular mass with larger wheels. I really believe some readers don't understand that even if total mass was identical. The angular momentum of the wheels are systems directly linked to fulcrums/axles and those levers are our purchase upon our topography. I would want the advantage to maintain self preservation. Yes, I seen more experienced bmx riders carve bitumen grades on wider more grippy tyres yet I know how much instability they appear to have. I guess big balls used as pendulums is why they hold well.
When you get the chance to wind some down grade sweepers maybe feel the feedback and check the computers as per which set up you gathered most wind with.
Maybe I'm wrong and the 700c I ride is better geometry regarding such leverages. Bcos aye. Seen skateboards go fast.
I don't think I'm wrong though. Maybe we could buy identical sail boat hulls/decks with identical sail area. 1 boat could have the main sail boom at head height and we'll name her '700c'. The 2nd boat could have her boom high enough to do jumping Jacks and we'll name her '20inch'.
In light wind '20inch' should be faster because not only would her sail be higher and finding wind, the leverage would tilt the boat and contour the cloth into a nice shape.
When the winds high I'd prefer the cumbersome disadvantages of '700c' because she'll be a lot safer.
Having written all that, I'm just looking at 3 wheels all leaning against each other; 20 inch, 24inch, 700c. Get a good tyre. Lol

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OldRidgeback | 6 years ago
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As others have also pointed out, small wheels are far more vulnerable to potholes. As a BMXer I'm more than aware than most cyclists of the ride that a bike with 20" wheels gives. Sure, my racing BMX is a work of art and on the track it's wonderful as it's short wheelbase combines with the built-in instability of the smaller wheels with their narrower turning circle to make it really nimble.

But I do commute on it sometimes, with a big seatpost to raise the saddle. And those same characteristics that make small wheels so good on a BMX track give a far worse ride over potholed roads than even the 24" wheels on my BMX cruiser, let alone the 26" wheels of my MTB or the 700s on the road bike I share with my son.

I've had quite a bit of experience on small wheeled bikes. When I was a kid I rode a shopper with 20" wheels and put in a lot of miles on it. It was a Puch and vastly superior in terms of build quality to the Raleigh model, but boy it was heavy. I was very glad when I got a Falcon 10 speed one birthday and still lament its theft from outside a pub in South London. The Puch shopper was then taken over by my niece who used it for years, until it finally fell apart. The Puch rode ok, certaily better than the original Moulton my mate had. I know some people are starry-eyed about them but I thought it was a horror, with wayward handling, though admittedly not quite as bad as the Raleigh RSW16 another mate had. Moving up to date, another mate uses his Brompton to commute. I've ridden several times and to me, it's compromise. Yes, Brompton has pretty much optimised the idea of a compact folder, but small wheels are a compromise and don't perform as well over potholes, while also being rather twitchy on the steering.

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asdfqwerty | 6 years ago
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I imagine a lot of people associate small wheels with childrens' bikes and that would be enough to put them off it. For most people buying bikes, aesthetics and budget trumps appropriateness.

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Boatsie | 6 years ago
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From earlier...  Why do we need less grip to corner with larger wheels?

Moment of inertia.  Formula on internet.
 Force is proportionate to square of radius.
Hence if we use same tyre width/compound on a larger wheel and a smaller wheel then the larger wheel will not only have a larger tendency to remain at velocity from each point of tangent but also more tangents to accumulate sum of forces with.
Hence because the wheel is lawful to that of common physics,  a greater force will be required to move such sidewards. 
A downside to such is agility which is sometimes preferred along technical roadways such as tow paths where short sharp velocity changes make lifes easy.

I love UK,  I laugh with a brother because his front door height is about level with my eyebrows. We have different road ways down here and space to store bikes which could be why small wheel tall cog machines haven't caught on.

I love the French,  pretty sure some French dude invented the bicycle.  They are as simple as us!

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Griff500 replied to Boatsie | 6 years ago
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Boatsie wrote:

From earlier...  Why do we need less grip to corner with larger wheels? Moment of inertia.  Formula on internet.  Force is proportionate to square of radius. Hence if we use same tyre width/compound on a larger wheel and a smaller wheel then the larger wheel will not only have a larger tendency to remain at velocity from each point of tangent but also more tangents to accumulate sum of forces with. Hence because the wheel is lawful to that of common physics,  a greater force will be required to move such sidewards. 

I take it you didn't study science at school?  Apart from what you say above being absolute nonsense, your generalisations "same tyre width/compound" are laughable, and ignore the very important contribution of tyre pressure and contact patch size and shape.

Your internet formula describing rotational intertia of the wheel has nothing to do with changing the direction of linear momentum of the bike. Any gyroscopic effect in the wheels is negligible compared to your momentum (mass x velocity) in a given direction, which you want to change to a different direction.

Incidentally, Schwalbe, who I assume know a thing or two about tyres, have some interesting stuff on rolling resistance on their website. A few of the highlights: Larger diameter reduces rolling resistance, but so does a wider tyre up to a point, which might explain the recent trend from 23mm tyres to 25mm and 28mm.  Smaller diameter tyres inflated to the same pressure have a higher rolling resistance than a large one because a small tyre when deformed by load,  is "less round" at the contact point. And you can't solve this by inflating a small tyre more, because then your contact patch becomes smaller. So if you want an easy ride long distance on road, stick with your 700c tyres.

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Boatsie replied to Griff500 | 6 years ago
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Griff500 wrote:

Boatsie wrote:

From earlier...  Why do we need less grip to corner with larger wheels? Moment of inertia.  Formula on internet.  Force is proportionate to square of radius. Hence if we use same tyre width/compound on a larger wheel and a smaller wheel then the larger wheel will not only have a larger tendency to remain at velocity from each point of tangent but also more tangents to accumulate sum of forces with. Hence because the wheel is lawful to that of common physics,  a greater force will be required to move such sidewards. 

I take it you didn't study science at school?  Apart from what you say above being absolute nonsense, your generalisations "same tyre width/compound" are laughable, and ignore the very important contribution of tyre pressure and contact patch size and shape.

Your internet formula describing rotational intertia of the wheel has nothing to do with changing the direction of linear momentum of the bike. Any gyroscopic effect in the wheels is negligible compared to your momentum (mass x velocity) in a given direction, which you want to change to a different direction.

Incidentally, Schwalbe, who I assume know a thing or two about tyres, have some interesting stuff on rolling resistance on their website. A few of the highlights: Larger diameter reduces rolling resistance, but so does a wider tyre up to a point, which might explain the recent trend from 23mm tyres to 25mm and 28mm.  Smaller diameter tyres inflated to the same pressure have a higher rolling resistance than a large one because a small tyre when deformed by load,  is "less round" at the contact point. And you can't solve this by inflating a small tyre more, because then your contact patch becomes smaller. So if you want an easy ride long distance on road, stick with your 700c tyres.

I'm very well regarding physics thank you.
While at university I drank 1.5 litres of zambuca an hour before our 3hr physics exam. Half hour into the exam I had to walk out due to loss of eyesight amongst other coordination issues.
I achieved a distinction.
I had topped my class the year before in both mathematics and physics.
It is basic law. If you want to know why learn such with your own mind. We are all bright. I don't teach.
Angular momentum is key. Not gyroscopic force.
Just storming because someone bright can sort out bs and see clear point.
I'm bored but there is no way to tell you how to brake besides hit the accerator and aim at the brick wall. Rotational inertia is key.. Total inertia isn't as relevant regarding debate of whether small wheels are comfortable. Tyres yes. You ain't an idiot neither and neither of us are pedantic to language all that read.
Makes sense to me and that most of my care...
Safe riding.

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Boatsie | 6 years ago
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I disagree. Wheel size does effect handling characteristics. Design of bike more so towards effect of handling.
At an extreme, we don't see 1inch diameter or 1.5metre diameter wheels often yet 20-28 inch seem decent to many modern bike designs. 20inch certainly helps transportation of such. I love riding a 24inch bike as I find it a lot faster along tow paths. It is light weight, wide wheeled and a fantastic design. On long straights it might be capable of pushing wind yet it is single cog and ain't tall geared. I prefer this to a larger wheel on tow paths because I ain't as shaken and it's agility certainly keeps the pace up. On larger faster smoother curves I prefer 700c yet again that probably bike design.
Much to much, can't go wrong with either if you find your bicycle comfortable and enjoyable.
Smaller wheels are often stronger and less maintaince.
My faster tread 700c wheels aren't the fastest tyres but heaps harsher than a cruisy pace fat one.
Best of luck.
(I believe in moment of inertia yet whatever makes you smile is the best suit)
I have never seen a Moulton bicycle. They do look quite quick. I'm impressed from internet browsing.
More yawning of what I type. Lol.
I don't think they have caught on here because..
Expensive.
I have trouble trusting 700 28c down the local grade on 70kmph sweepers, the 24 inch isn't stable down the straight road grade and just plain and simple... I rely on inertia preferably far from the axle. Because the wheel wants to go that way it will have less tendency to want to go sideways. I am so scared, remembering consistently which lever is which brake. On drop bars at the grade 30km from home 90kmph not uncommon.
Storage, flatter roads, strength.... They look really useful.

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Doc Sportello | 6 years ago
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I use a Moulton TSR for commuting 8 miles each way and it is an absolute delight.  Big rack, looks fantastic and is uber comfortable and that is what it is perfect for.  It's different horses for different courses though -  in the same way I wouldnt want to use my Bianchi Oltre for a rainy trip to the shops , I wouldnt use the Moulton for a pacy 100 miles.  I am lucky enought to have a number of bikes and a friend once asked which one I would choose if I had to just have one for the rest of my life - and the answer was the Moulton. 

In terms of speed, on the flat parts of my commute  I will do 20 mph on the Moulton but would  do 22mph on a decent road bike - guess there are aero issues - and the handling gets a little bit lively over 30 mph.

 The only downside is that everyone who knows about Moultons tends to assume you are an architect or a designer as they are absolutley mad on them - "all about the triangles" in the space frame apparently.

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sergius | 6 years ago
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I'd never heard of Moultons before, interesting.

 

Have seen a few about town in London, but nothing compared to the ubiquitous Bromptons.

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zero_trooper | 6 years ago
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Raleigh Twentys have a bit of a cult following:

 

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/raleigh-twenty.html

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iandusud replied to zero_trooper | 6 years ago
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zero_trooper wrote:

Raleigh Twentys have a bit of a cult following:

 

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/raleigh-twenty.html

If you're after a 20" small wheeler à la Raleigh Twenty pick up a Dawes Kingpin if you ever see one for sale. Much like the Raleigh but better. 

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hennie | 6 years ago
4 likes

I'd love to add to the clever debate above, but the honest answer is that I'd feel a bit of a plonker on one

Short and sweet 

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pjclinch | 6 years ago
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It boils down to the bike market being very conservative.  Small wheels are not what "proper bikes" have, so therefore they must not be so good (probably...).  So far more big wheeled bikes are made, so that's what people choose, and so on in a self-reinforcing cycle.

It didn't help that historically the original Moulton was buried by Raleigh in a fit of Not Invented Here and the cheap and cheerful lookalikes like the RSW weren't actually cheerful, though most people today will have forgotten that.  These days most people will simply repeat Received Wisdom as to why small wheels are bad without actually trying a well designed small wheel bike, and persist with the big wheels they're familiar with even when they're not actually any particaular help (or for diminutive riders, possibly an active hindrance).

A Brompton opened my eyes to small wheels being more capable than I'd thought, and now I use a Moulton TSR as my general Hack Bike.  It's just nicer to ride than a 700c bike, more manouvrable and more comfortable (and so it should be at the price, of course)

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Shouldbeinbed | 6 years ago
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I've disposed of nearly all of my bike collection, the one bike that I have kept hold of for all types of riding is my 2002 Birdy Blue. It's a bit Triggers Broom in that lots of the moving parts have been changed a few times over the years but it is the perfect bike for pretty much anything but flat out racing and has effective suspension front and rear so it smooths out even the grimmest of Manchester roads and the odd cobbled bits I encounter quite happily. I'll be riding it until it or I can't manage any more.

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LWaB | 6 years ago
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Most folks only buy and ride what they see. Then they justify their choice without knowing enough about the alternatives.

I've done a lot of 1200km brevets on my custom S&S 700C Frezoni and a lot of 120km brevets on Moultons. Moultons are a little heavier and a little slower uphill but much more comfortable and quicker downhill. I'll keep riding all sorts of bikes - they're fun!

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EddyBerckx | 6 years ago
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Never seen a moulton in the flesh (pretty ugly in the pics I've seen) but as great as I'm sure they are, if you cant buy them then whats the point of bigging them up for a commute? Most people will either go for an expensive Brompton or cheap folder thats even worse to ride (not saying Bromptons are particularly bad).

 

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iandusud | 6 years ago
3 likes

A bigger wheel will cope with pot holes and other road surface irregularities better than a smaller wheel on a bike without suspension. However the Moulton is a very different beast. I have two 700c road bikes that I run with GP4000s 25s at 70psi (I weigh around 70kg) and I can assure you that they cannot compare in any way to ride that my Moulton gives on the sort of potholed roads around here. When I was commuting in London I would alternate bikes and the when riding the Moulton I didn't have to worry about steering around potholes and drain covers. There was also a downhill section with speed humps that I would take on the Moulton full speed without have to take my weight off the saddle - I couldn't do that on the others. I can also say that the Moulton is the best steering bike at speed that I've ever ridden. 

I'm not a Moulton evangelist - I'm a cycling evangelist and I love all my bikes for different reasons, but I hear so many people stating opinions as facts about small wheeled bikes as if all small wheeled bikes are the same. It's like people who've had a bad experience with cycling because they've ridden a poorly maintained bike that's the round size saying that cycling is hard work.

Just a final annecdote. What really convinced me of the merits of the AM Moultons was about 30 years ago when I'd had a forced 12 month break from cycling due to a knee injury. The annual London to Brighton bike ride was coming up and I'd missed it the previous year due to my injury and I didn't want to miss it again. So I decided at the last minute to ride it on our demo Moulton AM7. As I hadn't ridden a bike in over a year I decided to just ride to Brighton and get the train back. When we (my brother and  28 got to Brighton I felt so fresh that I decided to ride back to London. We picked up another rider and formed a chaingang and did the fastest ride back from Brighton I've ever done. I felt remarkably fresh at the end of it, which was a testimony to the ride quality of the Moulton. I proceed to build myself the Moulton Jubilee I still ride today. 

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Shades | 6 years ago
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I'm a Bristol 'part drive, part cycle' commuter; solve the space issue by having a van.  Have a small wheel folder for train/bike days.  Much slower than a standard 700cc bike, although easier on the train.  Have noticed an increase in Bromptons over the past year or so.  You wonder whether there's any merit in councils having small free parking areas at strategic points to encourage drive/bike commuting.

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Stef Marazzi | 6 years ago
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Interesting isn't it, the amount of people part driving, part cycling to Bristol (and Bath) it's like a whole secret world of multi modal commuters out there, but you only realise it when you do it yourself.

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iandusud | 6 years ago
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Putting fat tyres on small wheels ruins (suined them). It's what gave small wheelers a bad reputation as rotating weight and rolling resistance increases. It's what killed off the original 1960s Moultons and what made Alex Moulton a very bitter man, as he sold a licence to Raleigh to make them only for Raleigh to ditch the suspension for fat tyres to make them cheaper.

There are so many misconceptions about small wheeled bikes. I used to sell the AM Moultons (1983 on) and they sold themselves - the simple secret was giving people a test ride. People couldn't believe how fast and comfortable they were, and also how well they handle. 

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BBB replied to iandusud | 6 years ago
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iandusud wrote:

Putting fat tyres on small wheels ruins (suined them). It's what gave small wheelers a bad reputation as rotating weight and rolling resistance increases. It's what killed off the original 1960s Moultons and what made Alex Moulton a very bitter man, as he sold a licence to Raleigh to make them only for Raleigh to ditch the suspension for fat tyres to make them cheaper.

There are so many misconceptions about small wheeled bikes. I used to sell the AM Moultons (1983 on) and they sold themselves - the simple secret was giving people a test ride. People couldn't believe how fast and comfortable they were, and also how well they handle. 

Please stop spreading pseudo-science .

As it's been discussed many times before, rotating mass is bordeline irrelevant when you take into account the weight of the entire system  (including the rider).

Fatter tyres have LOWER not higher rolling resistance particularily on bad roads when used at proportionally lower pressure.  

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