I have a Pinnacle Arkose 2016 which I bought on the cycle to work scheme.  I have put about 6k on it and ride on and off road.  I have a set of Hunt 4 season wheels as well as the originals so I can have a set with road tyres and a set with off road tyres.  It was when I had the off road tyres on that I noticed that the rear wheel was out of alignment.  

I realigned the rear wheel and checked the quick release and it seemed tight enough, certainly as tight as I have had them on any other bike but the wheel still went out of alignment.

 

I’ve been to Evans twice with each set of wheels.  The first time they said that the quick release wasn’t tight enough and swapped it for a Shimano one (on my off road wheels).  The second time to kept the bike over the weekend and called Pinnacle, who apparently said it was down to the quick release drop out combination, and they had tried another quick release and it they couldn’t get it to move, they gave me back my old (Hunt) quick release. 

All seemed ok but I’ve just move back to my off road set of wheels and the Shimano quick release and I noticed that the wheel has move again can’t seem to turn the adjuster which now seems to be locked.      

 

The last bit of information is that the wheel moves out of alignment to the left (near side – non gear side – brake side) every time and seems to move by the same amount.

I’ve had bikes with vertical dropouts for years and never had any issues.  So my question is it normal that you need to tighten the quick release to a stage where you can barely lock them or do people think there may be something wrong with my vertical drop outs?  

Any advice or recommendations welcome.

41 comments

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VeloUSA [269 posts] 4 months ago
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"The last bit of information is that the wheel moves out of alignment to the left (near side – non gear side – brake side) every time and seems to move by the same amount."

Without a QR  does the wheel remain centered or fall offline? Have you checked that your dropous are not worn which may cause misalignment? Pictures (dropouts, wheel alignment) are worth hundreds of words.

 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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VeloUSA wrote:

Without a QR  does the wheel remain centered or fall offline? Have you checked that your dropous are not worn which may cause misalignment? Pictures (dropouts, wheel alignment) are worth hundreds of words.

Will get pics tonight of each of these and post.  I'll get back to you soon.

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hawkinspeter [2515 posts] 4 months ago
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QRs should be done up tight, but they shouldn't require extreme tension just to keep the wheel in place. It almost sounds like the wheel axle isn't fitting into the drop outs correctly or that there's a mis-match with the width of the axle and the bike frame. Some close up pics should give some more info.

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dottigirl [833 posts] 4 months ago
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as above, but my gut feeling is, if it happens on both wheels, that the frame isn't right.

Time to be a little more insistent with Evans and get a replacement.

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madcarew [814 posts] 4 months ago
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How bad is the misalignment? if it's only a few mm it's not really important.

No, QR's shouldn't be done up really tight as it pre-loads the bearings. They should just be firm.  Doing them up tighter isn't going to resolve any problem except loose bearings.

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Well the quick release the gave me for the original wheels was either overly tight or too short, because it broke when I was leaving work. Picture attached. You can see the frame is wider than the 135 wheel spacing.

I've attached picture from either side of the bike showing how the wheel wants to sit before you move it to the centre, and puctures of the dropouts.
 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Near side where the wheel naturally wants to sit

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Gear side:

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Drop outs

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Gear side drop out

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Thanks so far for your comments guys. I had to do a comment for each picture but hopefully this gives a better picture.  My gut feeling was that it was the frame and it being too wide for the hub spacing.

Let me know what you think?

 

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madcarew [814 posts] 4 months ago
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I'm pretty sure the problem is that the QR's have been done up too tight with the wheel in the wrong position and have made an indentation on the drop outs  in the wrong place. Each time you do the QR up again the indentation forces the wheel back into the wrong position. Those don't actually appear to be vertical drop outs, more about 45 degrees.

It would be difficult to get a warranty claim on this I think, but all you need to do is have the indentation filed out from the drop outs (no actual harm to the frame, just the paint in the drop outs) and then carefully do the wheel up in the right position. The QR shoull be just firm, not very tight (The QR cam should start to engage when the QR lever is just past 90 degrees.)

Good luck, it should be a very simple fix.

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SpikeBike [112 posts] 4 months ago
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Personally my QR can be closed with just my thumb. You shouldnt need to use your palm to close it.

With the bike the right way up, open the QR and drop the wheel in. Make sure it is seated into the drops fully by lifting the the back end up with the wheel. From the back is the wheel centred? Or is it left/right angled? or is the whole wheel more to one side? If it is all to one side then maybe your wheel is not dished corretly?

 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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madcarew wrote:

I'm pretty sure the problem is that the QR's have been done up too tight with the wheel in the wrong position and have made an indentation on the drop outs  in the wrong place. Each time you do the QR up again the indentation forces the wheel back into the wrong position. Those don't actually appear to be vertical drop outs, more about 45 degrees.

It would be difficult to get a warranty claim on this I think, but all you need to do is have the indentation filed out from the drop outs (no actual harm to the frame, just the paint in the drop outs) and then carefully do the wheel up in the right position. The QR shoull be just firm, not very tight (The QR cam should start to engage when the QR lever is just past 90 degrees.)

Good luck, it should be a very simple fix.

I certainly don't do up the QRs too tight, well until recently on the advice from Evans.  This is only when I centre the wheel in the drop outs, I think it is quite apparent when the wheel isn't centred as the disc starts to rub.

I know there is a life time warranty on the frame and yes I agree, I think it could be difficult, but don't really want to take a file to the 45^o drop outs and make the warranty void.

 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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SpikeBike wrote:

Personally my QR can be closed with just my thumb. You shouldnt need to use your palm to close it.

With the bike the right way up, open the QR and drop the wheel in. Make sure it is seated into the drops fully by lifting the the back end up with the wheel. From the back is the wheel centred? Or is it left/right angled? or is the whole wheel more to one side? If it is all to one side then maybe your wheel is not dished corretly?

 

The wheels are dished correctly.  I have used two sets of wheels and get the same issues with each of the rear wheels.  Once the wheel is centred it looks centred and has an even space between the chainstays.  Using just a thumb tightness on the quick release is what I have always done, they are quick releases after all.  Evans seem to disagree with us all hear and feel they need to be tighter.  

 

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hawkinspeter [2515 posts] 4 months ago
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Any chance of a close up picture of how the axle is sitting in the dropouts? If you turn the bike upside down and put the wheel in place but don't tighten the QR, then snap a picture of both sides so we can see the comparative widths. Example picture attached

 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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hawkinspeter wrote:

Any chance of a close up picture of how the axle is sitting in the dropouts? If you turn the bike upside down and put the wheel in place but don't tighten the QR, then snap a picture of both sides so we can see the comparative widths.

Ok find attached and the following:

These are with the bike upside down and the QR open.  In this position the wheel naturally seems to get pulled by the chain out of alignment and moves to disc side.

 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Gear side with QR open

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Wheel alignment with QR open:

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Drinfinity [97 posts] 4 months ago
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The picture of the empty disc side dropout has a worn groove in it. To me this looks like the spindle has been moving about in the dropout under load. I’m not sure you would get that much of a gouge just from putting the wheel in and closing the Qr. 

 That could only happen if the QR wasn’t tight enough at some stage, hence the Evans advice to tighten it more. 

Fix can be:

put the wheel in, align it and close the QR

or

fill the worn area with 2part epoxy (JBWeld for example) then carefully file/sand it back to true. (The epoxy, not the base metal) The repair only has to hold in compression, and nothing would go seriously wrong if it failed. Unless you file into the dropout and it falls off, so use a fine file.

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Drinfinity wrote:

That could only happen if the QR wasn’t tight enough at some stage, hence the Evans advice to tighten it more. 

or

fill the worn area with 2part epoxy (JBWeld for example) then carefully file/sand it back to true. (The epoxy, not the base metal) The repair only has to hold in compression, and nothing would go seriously wrong if it failed. Unless you file into the dropout and it falls off, so use a fine file.

I think I agree that the old QR that got replaced wasn't holding it firm enough and there was movement, which caused the wear.  As I previously stated it now it moves from alignment if there is not enough force on the QR i.e. you have to have the QR overly tight.  So this option doesn't work unless you have the QR super tight and the last one broke.

The second option I like.  I'm not taking metal off the drop out but putting metal weld on it, I've used the stuff before on an old motorbike.  Halfords seem to have supersteel expoxy will get some on the way back from work. 

Thanks, will give it a go over the weekend and get back to you all. 

 

 

 

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hawkinspeter [2515 posts] 4 months ago
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tugglesthegreat wrote:
Drinfinity wrote:

That could only happen if the QR wasn’t tight enough at some stage, hence the Evans advice to tighten it more. 

or

fill the worn area with 2part epoxy (JBWeld for example) then carefully file/sand it back to true. (The epoxy, not the base metal) The repair only has to hold in compression, and nothing would go seriously wrong if it failed. Unless you file into the dropout and it falls off, so use a fine file.

I think I agree that the old QR that got replaced wasn't holding it firm enough and there was movement, which caused the wear.  As I previously stated it now it moves from alignment if there is not enough force on the QR i.e. you have to have the QR overly tight.  So this option doesn't work unless you have the QR super tight and the last one broke.

The second option I like.  I'm not taking metal off the drop out but putting metal weld on it, I've used the stuff before on an old motorbike.  Halfords seem to have supersteel expoxy will get some on the way back from work. 

Thanks, will give it a go over the weekend and get back to you all. 

I'd agree. The widths all look fine to me, so it's most likely the shape of the dropout that's causing the problem.

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CXR94Di2 [2245 posts] 4 months ago
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I dont like wheel spindles that have the threaded shaft sat against the dropout.  A recipe for gouging if small movement allowed.  Also the thread doesnt look long enough on one side to give enough support- only sits part way across the dropout

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Daddylonglegs [24 posts] 4 months ago
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My ten years as a bicycle mechanic back in the early 1990's may be some help here. Back then, particulary at the shop I worked, we often had problems with older and sometimes cheap imported bike frames and missmatched dropout and axle spacing combinations when customers wanted new wheels. These caused all manner of problems which often showed up as wheels pulling over when any force was applied to the pedals or wheels not centreing in the dropouts correctly. The problem has pretty much died out now because there has since been a broad standardization of axle and dropout widths, although I noticed standardization problems are starting to creep back here too, along with headsets and bottom brackets...

The problem you may be having, judging by the photographs, is that for some reason the dropout width (the distance between the internal faces of the right and left dropouts) is too wide for the width between the left and right axle locknuts of the hub. We saw this problem all the time back in the day. This means when the QR is closed, instead of most of the force of the QR cam clamping the axle locknuts tightly against the inside of the dropouts, much of the force is being used simply to overcome the natural spring in the rear triangle as it resists being forced sideways against the locknuts. All that force you think you are using to clamp the dropouts nice and tight against the locknuts is actually going into just forcing the rear triangle to bend inward what looks like in the pics, several millimetres. The gap should only be a millimetre or two (depending on how well built/expensive the frame is). Consequently there is not sufficient force keeping the the wheel in place, so when you push down on the right pedal crank, the chain pulls the cassette/hub and consequently the wheel out of line.

So what you may have there is a dodgy frame. Have a good look at that spacing and even check with a ruler what the dropout width is compared to the over locknut dimension of the hub. They should be about the same. If not, you'll need to take it back for a word with the dealer. Be aware though, in my experience, if you start talking 'drop-out spacings' and 'over locknut dimensions' to a lot of bike mechanics, they'll look at you as if you've come from Mars.

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Drinfinity [97 posts] 4 months ago
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Daddylonglegs wrote:

 The gap should only be a millimetre or two (depending on how well built/expensive the frame is). 

 

The OP’s photos do show about one mm of daylight between dropout and the locknut face of the hub. Hawkinspeter’s photo of the red bike has more than this.

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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The OP here with an update:

Drinfinity: suggested using metalweld to fill in the indentations in the drop out (disc side), I did this (see attached photo).  This didn't seem to resolve the issue but I noticed that there is a similar indentation on the gear side so I filled that as well and with my Hunt wheels fitted and the QR at the same tension after a 14 mile ride to work the back wheel is centre. 

Daddylonglegs: I really think the rear triangle being too wide and a poor quality QR could have been the root cause of all this.  I know others feel that the spacing looks fine but those pictures are with the wheel and QR in (albeit untensioned).  I can do some pics tonight of the wheel in situ with no QR and measure the rear triangle width.  My first pic post certainly shows some space between the wheel and drop out (the one where my QR broke).

 Regarding your comments regarding the drop out spacings and the possible reaction from the bike shop (Evans), I wont be surprised.

 

I'll take some measurements and try and get a better picture of how the wheel sits in the frame with no QR.

 

 

 

 

 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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Drinfinity wrote:
Daddylonglegs wrote:

 The gap should only be a millimetre or two (depending on how well built/expensive the frame is). 

 

The OP’s photos do show about one mm of daylight between dropout and the locknut face of the hub. Hawkinspeter’s photo of the red bike has more than this.

The first picture I posted, where the nut on the QR stripped certainly show more than 1mm. 

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tugglesthegreat [103 posts] 4 months ago
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CXR94Di2 wrote:

I dont like wheel spindles that have the threaded shaft sat against the dropout.  A recipe for gouging if small movement allowed.  Also the thread doesnt look long enough on one side to give enough support- only sits part way across the dropout

The original wheels seem to have enough axle to sit in the dropout, certainly similar to the Hunt wheels. 

Got to agree though that theaded shafts and dropouts I don't like either.  Thru axles could be the answer or maybe leave that to another post to open that can of worms!

 

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Daddylonglegs [24 posts] 4 months ago
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Drifinity pointed out that the photo I may have been looking at was the example pic and not the OP's. I think he's right. Nevertheless Tugglesthegreat's pics did not show the spacing with the QR removed. It's important to do this because you need to see the rear triangle in a neutral, unflexed state and an open QR can still put some tension on the dropouts. He then needs to drop the wheel in - QR removed - to see how the spacing looks.

It's possible this issue of dropout spacing accuracy is even more important in aluminium than it is in steel. Steel has a higher tensile strength than aluminium which means it can be sprung further before it bends. If there is any dramatic inaccuracy in the dropout spacing with a decent aluminium frame then it will be even harder to close the gap and provide a good grip on the locknuts with a QR than it will on a ('springier') steel frame.

Incidentally, this problem can work both ways. If the dropouts are too close for the hub width and the rear triangle has to be sprung apart to accomodate the wheel, this puts the dropouts out of parallel with each other causing the locknuts and the gripping faces of the QR not to fully or evenly contact the dropouts for a good grip. Again this leads to the wheel pulling out under load.

In the past when most people had steel frames this could be remedied by hand (and sometimes feet, legs and a piece of 4x2) by physically bending out the rear triangle to the correct width and then - and this was the important bit - using a pair of alignment tools to reset the dropouts. I doubt this is easy or even possible with aluminium or titanium. And certainly not with carbon fibre!

P.S. Threads on axles are not a problem - they have to be there on most hubs to allow the cones and locknuts to be screwed on. Likewise, the axle ends must fall short of the outside edge of the dropouts to enable the QR to work properly. People who mess with axle lengths and over locknut spacing without understanding how they need to work do so literally at their own peril. It's then the word 'dropout' suddenly takes on a whole new and sinister meaning.

If the axle thread is damaging the inside of the dropout, that's because the steel axle is sliding around in soft aluminium as per the original problem. It won't happen once you've got it sorted.

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Drinfinity [97 posts] 4 months ago
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tugglesthegreat wrote:

The first picture I posted, where the nut on the QR stripped certainly show more than 1mm. 

So it does! Good to hear it’s fixed now.

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