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Why does anyone commute into town centres in cars?

I know there's always going to some people who 'have' to commute in cars for some reason or another but it just seems madness after what I witnessed this morning.

Luckily I don't work in a town so my commute is fairly rural and congestion is perhaps a tractor in the way but I went into York as I had a early appointment at the hospital and it was just utter grid lock.

I was on the motorbike and came off the A64 at the designer outlet to massive queues, down the outside to the front and carried on like that, cutting to the front all the way to the hospital. It was just like a 3 mile queue into town. I'd have never made it on time in a car.

I really can't imagine doing that EVERY day and never get that lightbulb moment. All you'd need would be a moped.

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ChrisB200SX | 5 years ago
2 likes

I'm self-employed and currently commute Reading to Camberwell.
I used to walk to bus stop, bus into town, train into Paddington, underground to Victoria, overground to Camberwell. This was costing my business nearly £500 per month. GWR services are appalling, any delay on any of these links and I'd be looking at 2hrs 30 minutes or more, in either direction. Best I did was a little under 2 hours, with everything working perfectly. It was binary.
I then bought a Brompton, instantly cut 25 minutes off my commute into Reading and more time saved after Paddington. I think I was doing the journey in about 1hr 30. Assuming GWR wasn't massively failing, cancelling trains and being very late and slow service, which it often was. I rarely bothered to try to get a seat. Still cost £435 per month.
I now drive and wish I had done so from the start. It takes a bit longer (was quick during school holiday), 2 hours to 2hr 45mins. Sometimes a little quicker coming home. Especially if I leave quite late. This would cost me about £170 in fuel each month and £110 in parking, but I can claim £774 mileage each month for 10,000 miles then £430 per month after 10,000 miles. I'm financially far better off and not throwing money at GWR. Also now driving an electric car which is costing me virtually nothing in electricity at the moment, would normally be £50 per month.

I would much prefer to be cycling if I could find somewhere affordable to park once I've got to the end of the M4.

People drive because public transport totally fails to meet requirements and there are far too many dangerous drivers let loose on the roads, among many other reasons.

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PRSboy replied to ChrisB200SX | 5 years ago
0 likes

ChrisB200SX wrote:

People drive because public transport totally fails to meet requirements and there are far too many dangerous drivers let loose on the roads, among many other reasons.

Yup, fair point.  Also in my case lack of infrastructure, namely something as simple as a shower at the office.  I ride the 15 hilly miles to work in the lighter months for fun, but only when I can look like a sweaty scruff in casual dress on Fridays, after a mop down with a flannel...

If I had a shower at work I would undoubtably do it more, but the prospect of riding the twisty country potholed roads in the dark is worrying, seeing the speeds folk pass me on those lanes.

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ConcordeCX replied to PRSboy | 5 years ago
1 like

PRSboy wrote:

ChrisB200SX wrote:

People drive because public transport totally fails to meet requirements and there are far too many dangerous drivers let loose on the roads, among many other reasons.

Yup, fair point.  Also in my case lack of infrastructure, namely something as simple as a shower at the office.  I ride the 15 hilly miles to work in the lighter months for fun, but only when I can look like a sweaty scruff in casual dress on Fridays, after a mop down with a flannel...

If I had a shower at work I would undoubtably do it more, but the prospect of riding the twisty country potholed roads in the dark is worrying, seeing the speeds folk pass me on those lanes.

When I worked at a place without showers I used to cycle to a nearby swimming pool and do a few lengths after my ride before starting work. It was great and I was fit as a butcher's dog without smelling like one.

 

 

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OldRidgeback | 5 years ago
6 likes

Hmm, I'm curious how many of the people I see on my commute really need to travel by car. Yep, some people may have serious mobility issues and some may be carrying stuff in their vehicle. Some may also have to transport kids to school as part of their commute. 

But I'm still fairly certain that a significant proportion of those using cars simply don't need to and could use other methods instead. People use cars because they have them, not necessarily because they are the best solution.

So many of my colleagues moan about their car journey. "Buy a motorbike," I say and then they rattle off excuses about them being cold or wet. "Well I commute by motorbike and it's fine," I answer. Quite a few of them could also cycle and use the train (as I do when it's really cold/icy), but prefer the comfort of their cars, despite the inevitable traffic jams.

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fenix | 5 years ago
2 likes

In the past the car was fantastic.  Clean and dry and not too much traffic - so you could happily use it going into town. 

 

But now car ownership is much more prevalent - its no longer easy to drive into town, but people haven't twigged this yet.  

 

Manufacturers sell you cars on the basis of scenic open roads. Not traffic jams.

 

It's going to take a while for people to work this out. 

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Daveyraveygravey replied to fenix | 5 years ago
1 like

fenix wrote:

 

Manufacturers sell you cars on the basis of scenic open roads. Not traffic jams.

 

 

 

There's an ad on the radio at the moment for a Mercedes of some kind.  The only thing they mention in the "body" of the ad is that you can talk to it.  FFS!

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vonhelmet replied to Daveyraveygravey | 5 years ago
1 like

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

fenix wrote:

 

Manufacturers sell you cars on the basis of scenic open roads. Not traffic jams.

 

 

 

There's an ad on the radio at the moment for a Mercedes of some kind.  The only thing they mention in the "body" of the ad is that you can talk to it.  FFS!

Well, you probably get lonely sat in a massive car on your own in a queue for hours on end.

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alansmurphy | 5 years ago
3 likes

I don't drive, I recreationally cycle >3k miles a year.

 

My daily commute has just increased by 15 miles per day and I'll be honest that if i could drive there's some days I would. Having said that I got a lift today and it took longer in the car, I didn't get that excitement of whizzing down a hill and my crisp to exercise ratio is all wrong.

 

However, my car solution is an electric bike, I've looked cheap, I've looked Halfords and one of my friends has a £3k Orbea which is a beaut. Just found out for 2019 this is coming out in a Claris model for £1,800, a relative bargain. With a disability, knee operations on the very near horizon and if I run it for 2 years after C2W inclusion it's likely to cost me £15 per week tops.

 

And I know if I leave for home and the wind is against me, I can still make it home with an average speed at 15.5mph, quicker than the car!!!

 

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BehindTheBikesheds replied to alansmurphy | 5 years ago
0 likes

alansmurphy wrote:

I don't drive, I recreationally cycle >3k miles a year.

 

My daily commute has just increased by 15 miles per day and I'll be honest that if i could drive there's some days I would. Having said that I got a lift today and it took longer in the car, I didn't get that excitement of whizzing down a hill and my crisp to exercise ratio is all wrong.

 

However, my car solution is an electric bike, I've looked cheap, I've looked Halfords and one of my friends has a £3k Orbea which is a beaut. Just found out for 2019 this is coming out in a Claris model for £1,800, a relative bargain. With a disability, knee operations on the very near horizon and if I run it for 2 years after C2W inclusion it's likely to cost me £15 per week tops.

 

And I know if I leave for home and the wind is against me, I can still make it home with an average speed at 15.5mph, quicker than the car!!!

I'd love to get a 'speed' e-assist velomobile with 3 wheels and a decent capacity for luggage so I can do 50+ mile journeys to friends and family in any weather without busting myself inside out. Currently it's still 3h15 by train to my folks door to door, by car it's actually less and less stressful, I'd be prepared to average circa 30mph over the 155miles.

Something like this - which is a chinese built electric car concept without all the gadets, massive lights and likely weighty door plus photovoltaic cells on the outside would be worth a trial. 

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Simon E replied to alansmurphy | 5 years ago
2 likes

alansmurphy wrote:

However, my car solution is an electric bike, I've looked cheap, I've looked Halfords and one of my friends has a £3k Orbea which is a beaut. Just found out for 2019 this is coming out in a Claris model for £1,800, a relative bargain. With a disability, knee operations on the very near horizon and if I run it for 2 years after C2W inclusion it's likely to cost me £15 per week tops.

Rockin'! wink

This is why e-bikes are the future. They allow people who can't / won't ride a purely human-powered bike to get about. They should revolutionise local deliveries and would surely be a great help in hilly towns.

They are not cheating, just as lifts and escalators are not cheating or catching a bus / riding a bicycle instead of walking is not cheating. They are great.

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LastBoyScout | 5 years ago
2 likes

Mostly what John Smith said above - because it just isn't practical for many people.

I'd commute by bike most days, except that 2 days a week, I have to drop my youngest off on the way and I can't realistically get her, all her stuff and all my stuff on one bike, especially given that when I pick her up in the evenings, she's too tired to go on the bike. And then there's the weather to factor in.

I'd also throw into the mix a lack of shower facilities and secure parking for bikes at work and a pile of other discouraging factors.

If I drive into work, I get up, shower, get dressed, have brekkie with the kids, get in car, drive to work (dropping off on the way), park in free office car park and walk into work. In the evening, I then walk back to car, drive home (collecting kids on the way) and that's about it.

If I cycle, then I get up, get cycle gear on, wonder if I've got enough layers and whether it's going to rain, open garage, unlock bike, close garage, cycle to work, lock bike up in semi-secure rack, remove computer/lights/camera/bottle, walk into work, shower and get changed, have brekkie at desk while starting to work. In the evening, I then have to go and get changed, walk out to bike, re-fit lights/camera/computer/bottle, cycle home, open garage, lock bike up, have another shower and get changed and put cycling kit in another pile for washing.

Overall, the car is probably less time in total and cycling adds another pile of things to think about.

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kil0ran | 5 years ago
2 likes

I'm driving from Hampshire to York today. Need to be in York for a 10am meeting tomorrow, and it's cheaper to drive, claim private mileage, and pay for an AirBnB than it is to get the train. If I lived near the airport I could have actually flown Southampton -> Leeds Bradford and it would have cost less than the train. The car option is the longest and most stressful (plus I can't work whilst driving) but it's the cheapest.

Fundamentally transport pricing is completely broken, and its not just for long journeys like that.

I used to cycle commute between 5 and 15 miles to my former employer in Southampton on most days but I'd still drive from time to time (motivation, laziness, weather, going on elsewhere after work) and it wasn't horrible/expensive enough to stop me from doing it, despite that for the short version of the commute it was quicker by bike. £5 to park all day just isn't expensive enough.

Southampton are running a Clean Air Zone consultation because it's one of the most polluted cities in the country (because port) and they've specifically excluded any restrictions on private vehicles. Says it all really...

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
2 likes

Where are you getting 12.4 miles from? I’m finding lower numbers. Not super low, but below 10.0 anyway.

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Yorkshire wallet | 5 years ago
4 likes

Well I had that LIKE A BOSS feeling yesterday, cutting through the swathes of congestion, straight to the front of every queue. Nobody even bothers to fck with you on a big motorbike either, from experience, drivers always used to get very annoyed if you went past with L plates on and did their best to get back ahead. I definitely felt like the apex predator rather than a rat avoiding getting whacked like I do on a bike in the rare occasions I'm in city traffic.

This said  a friend of mine doing contract work has commuted into York and Sheffield on his motorbike and said whilst he was able to make progress in York, a lot of lane spacing is so tight in Sheffield it was still difficult to make the same progress there.

 

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HoarseMann | 5 years ago
5 likes

A big reason is taking the car involves no forethought or planning.

There are a lot of things to consider when taking the bike. Once you are in the routine of commuting by bike it’s ok, but there is a hurdle to overcome that not many can be bothered to tackle.

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vonhelmet replied to HoarseMann | 5 years ago
7 likes

HoarseMann wrote:

A big reason is taking the car involves no forethought or planning. There are a lot of things to consider when taking the bike. Once you are in the routine of commuting by bike it’s ok, but there is a hurdle to overcome that not many can be bothered to tackle.

Cars are way more convenient. You can go and sit in a queue and get angry any time you like! You’re not bound by a timetable!

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dottigirl | 5 years ago
10 likes

What a lot of people don't understand is that cycling is for lazy people.

I cycled my local town in mid Wales to do some shopping the other day. Rolled past all the traffic queues. Parked right outside or took my bike in to every shop, it took practically no time at all, and caught the train home with my bike and full backpack. 

A few months ago, my nephew needed some stencils for a school project. Had a call from my sister and as I was in town, I cycled around five or six shops in minutes looking for them, from the little shops on the high street to the superstores on the outskirts.

Trying to hit that many spread-out shops with a car or walking would be virtually impossible. Either no parking or you'd still be looking at closing time. On my bike, it's super quick.

It really does surprise me that more people don't use a bike. Especially if they are disabled like me.

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davel replied to dottigirl | 5 years ago
7 likes

dottigirl wrote:

What a lot of people don't understand is that cycling is for lazy people.

I cycled my local town in mid Wales to do some shopping the other day. Rolled past all the traffic queues. Parked right outside or took my bike in to every shop, it took practically no time at all, and caught the train home with my bike and full backpack. 

A few months ago, my nephew needed some stencils for a school project. Had a call from my sister and as I was in town, I cycled around five or six shops in minutes looking for them, from the little shops on the high street to the superstores on the outskirts.

Trying to hit that many spread-out shops with a car or walking would be virtually impossible. Either no parking or you'd still be looking at closing time. On my bike, it's super quick.

It really does surprise me that more people don't use a bike. Especially if they are disabled like me.

I get your point, but you're looking at a different kind of laziness. You're talking about convenience. 

Huge numbers of people are just absolutely bone idle when it comes to locomotion: they really want to park their cars in their front room, then in their kid's classroom, then by their desk, then in the shop at the weekend. They kid themselves that they are busy, but they're even too lazy to calculate that they are literally wasting days each year sitting in traffic. 

Their future is the Wall-E one, with pods moving them everywhere. They're not going to alter their fat, lazy courses without being slapped out of it. 

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Daveyraveygravey replied to davel | 5 years ago
3 likes

davel wrote:

 

 

 

Huge numbers of people are just absolutely bone idle when it comes to locomotion: they really want to park their cars in their front room, then in their kid's classroom, then by their desk, then in the shop at the weekend. They kid themselves that they are busy, but they're even too lazy to calculate that they are literally wasting days each year sitting in traffic. 

Their future is the Wall-E one, with pods moving them everywhere. They're not going to alter their fat, lazy courses without being slapped out of it. 

 

I think this is the nub of the problem.  Although when I drive anywhere, I do find myself trying to "park by my desk"!

Perhaps cars can be fitted with some kind of immobiliser where if it is driven less than 5 miles, it switches off and can't be moved for days?

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Crippledbiker replied to dottigirl | 5 years ago
7 likes
dottigirl wrote:

It really does surprise me that more people don't use a bike. Especially if they are disabled like me.

I hear you.

A clip on handcycle is so, so much easier than pushing a manual chair directly; for starters, you've got proper brakes for hills, not just your fingers. Gears for ascending, too. Plus, a large front wheel rolls so much easier than castors.

The big problems are cost, and perception; cycles for wheelchair users start at about 1k, and that's for the most basic of basic.

Perception is a twofold problem; there is the perception that cycling isn't "for" less physically able persons, and there is also the concern of people getting the wrong idea -this ties into performative disability, stuff like the fact that although I can stand and walk a few steps (very slowly), I won't do so in public - because of arguments I've had, accusations made towards me etc.

People feel that, if they cycle, they'll be reported as benefit frauds and lose their (potentially sole source) disability income and/or cars.
Yes, this is fucked up.

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dottigirl replied to Crippledbiker | 5 years ago
5 likes

Crippledbiker wrote:
dottigirl wrote:

It really does surprise me that more people don't use a bike. Especially if they are disabled like me.

I hear you. A clip on handcycle is so, so much easier than pushing a manual chair directly; for starters, you've got proper brakes for hills, not just your fingers. Gears for ascending, too. Plus, a large front wheel rolls so much easier than castors. The big problems are cost, and perception; cycles for wheelchair users start at about 1k, and that's for the most basic of basic. Perception is a twofold problem; there is the perception that cycling isn't "for" less physically able persons, and there is also the concern of people getting the wrong idea -this ties into performative disability, stuff like the fact that although I can stand and walk a few steps (very slowly), I won't do so in public - because of arguments I've had, accusations made towards me etc. People feel that, if they cycle, they'll be reported as benefit frauds and lose their (potentially sole source) disability income and/or cars. Yes, this is fucked up.

I was riding with someone the other day whose husband is disabled due to cancer and associated mobility conditions. He can still cycle short distances but is scared that someone will 'report him' if he is seen on his bike. Therefore, he hardly gets out. 

The sheer state of this country means someone is deprived from doing something which he wants to do, which would be physically and mentally beneficial, because he's afraid he'll get penalised for it. It makes me want to cry. I've been through these hoops and won, but I had to appeal and it was bloody hard.

There was a lot of stuff on Twitter a few weeks ago about ambulatory disabled and the sheer amount of ignorance some people face.

My biggest fear is someone deciding to push me off my bike because I'm having a bad day and having to cycle (slowly!) on pavement for a short distance - I'm not visibly disabled and ride a normal bike. I've already been roughly shouldered by someone twice my size, luckily I had stopped at the time and was balanced enough to not fall.

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Crippledbiker replied to dottigirl | 5 years ago
2 likes
dottigirl wrote:

Crippledbiker wrote:
dottigirl wrote:

It really does surprise me that more people don't use a bike. Especially if they are disabled like me.

I hear you. A clip on handcycle is so, so much easier than pushing a manual chair directly; for starters, you've got proper brakes for hills, not just your fingers. Gears for ascending, too. Plus, a large front wheel rolls so much easier than castors. The big problems are cost, and perception; cycles for wheelchair users start at about 1k, and that's for the most basic of basic. Perception is a twofold problem; there is the perception that cycling isn't "for" less physically able persons, and there is also the concern of people getting the wrong idea -this ties into performative disability, stuff like the fact that although I can stand and walk a few steps (very slowly), I won't do so in public - because of arguments I've had, accusations made towards me etc. People feel that, if they cycle, they'll be reported as benefit frauds and lose their (potentially sole source) disability income and/or cars. Yes, this is fucked up.

I was riding with someone the other day whose husband is disabled due to cancer and associated mobility conditions. He can still cycle short distances but is scared that someone will 'report him' if he is seen on his bike. Therefore, he hardly gets out. 

The sheer state of this country means someone is deprived from doing something which he wants to do, which would be physically and mentally beneficial, because he's afraid he'll get penalised for it. It makes me want to cry. I've been through these hoops and won, but I had to appeal and it was bloody hard.

There was a lot of stuff on Twitter a few weeks ago about ambulatory disabled and the sheer amount of ignorance some people face.

My biggest fear is someone deciding to push me off my bike because I'm having a bad day and having to cycle (slowly!) on pavement for a short distance - I'm not visibly disabled and ride a normal bike. I've already been roughly shouldered by someone twice my size, luckily I had stopped at the time and was balanced enough to not fall.

I've had a few...encounters with people who believe I shouldn't be where I am with my bike.

Thing is; My bike attaches to my wheelchair. Legally, because it's not mechanically propelled, I'm still a category I invalid carriage, which makes me a pedestrian.
Category II and III explicitly require mechanical propulsion - an ebike (so long as you don't use a throttle...) is mechanically assisted, which is a legally distinct thing. (The askthepolice website is completely wrong, by the way, the legislation specifically states mechnically propelled)

Where I've had people stand in my path to attempt to block me, I've either taken them up on that game of chicken, or squeezed passed them at the first opportunity - I had one old codger intentionally walk up a cycle lane in Woking last weekend to try and stop me, though he didn't really have a comeback when my reply to his demand to dismount was to point out that it's a wheelchair, I don't really have that option, and to enquire when his eyes were last tested.

I'm pretty sure I have been reported, but the fact that I use handcycles exclusively probably weighs in my favour.

If you're concerned about people reacting badly to your use of a bike as a mobility aid, I suggest you have a look at wheels for wellbeing[1] - Isabel Clement uses an almost identical unit to mine, and one of their big campaigns is to try and get people to recognise that normal bikes are often used as mobility aids.
Hell, I had better mobility using a normal bicycle than actually walking towards the middle of my trip down to a wheelchair, though carrying crutches is somewhat of an art...

[1]https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/campaigning/our-campaigns/

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kil0ran replied to dottigirl | 5 years ago
1 like

dottigirl wrote:

Crippledbiker wrote:
dottigirl wrote:

It really does surprise me that more people don't use a bike. Especially if they are disabled like me.

I hear you. A clip on handcycle is so, so much easier than pushing a manual chair directly; for starters, you've got proper brakes for hills, not just your fingers. Gears for ascending, too. Plus, a large front wheel rolls so much easier than castors. The big problems are cost, and perception; cycles for wheelchair users start at about 1k, and that's for the most basic of basic. Perception is a twofold problem; there is the perception that cycling isn't "for" less physically able persons, and there is also the concern of people getting the wrong idea -this ties into performative disability, stuff like the fact that although I can stand and walk a few steps (very slowly), I won't do so in public - because of arguments I've had, accusations made towards me etc. People feel that, if they cycle, they'll be reported as benefit frauds and lose their (potentially sole source) disability income and/or cars. Yes, this is fucked up.

I was riding with someone the other day whose husband is disabled due to cancer and associated mobility conditions. He can still cycle short distances but is scared that someone will 'report him' if he is seen on his bike. Therefore, he hardly gets out. 

The sheer state of this country means someone is deprived from doing something which he wants to do, which would be physically and mentally beneficial, because he's afraid he'll get penalised for it. It makes me want to cry. I've been through these hoops and won, but I had to appeal and it was bloody hard.

There was a lot of stuff on Twitter a few weeks ago about ambulatory disabled and the sheer amount of ignorance some people face.

My biggest fear is someone deciding to push me off my bike because I'm having a bad day and having to cycle (slowly!) on pavement for a short distance - I'm not visibly disabled and ride a normal bike. I've already been roughly shouldered by someone twice my size, luckily I had stopped at the time and was balanced enough to not fall.

 

Even if you're able-bodied (apols if that's not the right term) a bike can be easier than walking. My knees aren't great and I'd find it hard to run a mile or walk a couple of miles but I can easily do 60 miles on a bike. Not great at standing for too long these days either. If I couldn't cycle the only exercise I could probably do would be swimming, and that would involve driving to the leisue centre...

 

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kraut replied to dottigirl | 5 years ago
3 likes
dottigirl wrote:

What a lot of people don't understand is that cycling is for lazy people.

Lazy people in a hurry. Who don't like crowded, unreliable public transport.

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BehindTheBikesheds | 5 years ago
3 likes

As late as the 1980s Hull/East Yorks/N.lincs had very high levels of cycling to work, it's around 6% if that in Hull and everytime I go back the city is clogged with motor traffic. It's crying out for the LA to actually do something but all they do is ignore the problem and simply think shit strewn shared use paths that exit out directly into industrial estates with tipper lorries, HGVs etc exiting/entering at all times is just fine.

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EK Spinner | 5 years ago
5 likes

I think there is also a much bigger issue which is harder to solve, why are people travelling so far to get to work.

Why do we concentrate so many jobs in zoned industrial areas, and then live in massive housing areas miles from our work, the whole system is a mess. 50 /60 years ago (most?) people lived within walking distance of thier work (and schools). If you changed job to somewhere 50 miles away then you would probably have moved house as well. then again in those days we didn't change jobs (either voluntarily or enforced) as often as many folks do now.

I can't imagine that this will ever be reversed but I believe this cultural shift is what has caused many of our problems.

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vonhelmet | 5 years ago
12 likes

Don’t underestimate how staggeringly lazy people are. I mean just unbelievably lazy.

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Yorkshire wallet replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
3 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

Don’t underestimate how staggeringly lazy people are. I mean just unbelievably lazy.

Take losing weight. You literally have to do less of what is causing the problem in most cases but people are too lazy/lack willpower to stick to anything. 

 

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davel replied to vonhelmet | 5 years ago
8 likes

vonhelmet wrote:

Don’t underestimate how staggeringly lazy people are. I mean just unbelievably lazy.

40% of adults don't get 150 minutes moderate exercise per week. That's 20 minutes of brisk walking per day - if you've ever had a fitness tracker or smartwatch, it seems hard for a normal adult to do so little.

A sizeable (arf) chunk of the population just does no exercise. Bombarding them with weekly reports of how they're committing slow suicide isn't working, so guilt-tripping them about the burden on the NHS or air pollution won't, either.

This government is too scared to be seen as nannying to do anything meaningful (anyone see the weird BBC article this week with Clare Perry refusing to back a UN report's call to eat less meat in order to avoid a 1.5C temperature rise?).

When I'm king, there'll be door-knockers with cattle prods shocking the fatties off their couches and confiscating car keys, and annual desecrations of Ernest Marples's skeleton. Until then, central government really needs to invest in proper transport alternatives. But no: electrification in the 'Northern Powerhouse' is put on hold because the magic money fruit has all been used up on freezing fuel duty and HS2.

Shower of cunts.

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BehindTheBikesheds | 5 years ago
1 like

How many cities have more than 3 miles radius to the city centre, everybody within 3-4 miles should not have any excuse re distance, it's simply nonsense, even 80 year olds can cycle that in 25 minutes. My 5 year old grandson cycled from school Friday before last to mine, it's 2miles, despite the motor traffic holding us up it took about 20minutes.

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