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forum
Are you better than my local bike shop?
OK - warning up front this is a rear derailleur noise question. I'm a pretty good bike wrench (as the Americans would say) but neither I nor my local bike shop can figure this one out. I've searched everywhere and can't find the same problem online. Don't seem to be able to search cc forums which is odd but it didn't throw up anything via Google anyway.
Anyway - I have noise on my rear cassette. All sprockets, but worse in the central few. 105 5700 cassette, shifters, derailleur. Currently new SRAM chain but same with original 105 chain.
It's coming from the jockey wheels - You the derailleur "kicking" (jolting) several times per revolution. Only way to stop it seems to be to slacken the chain a bit by hand by pulling the derailleur arm down. Just because the noise is the kicking from the derailleur doesn't necessarily mean the derailleur is at fault though. So far I've tried:
- New cassette and original cassette
- New SRAM chain and original 5700 chain (meshed with original cassette)
- Replaced the hanger and had alignment checked at shop
- Double-checked chain length using online calculator.
- New freehub bearings, and when that didn't work, new wheels
- Checked frame straight (carbon, but checked anyway)
- Full strip and lube of jockey wheels which are in excellent order
- Put on a spare very-little-used Dura Ace rear derailleur. Same problem.
- Messing with the B-screw - doesn't actually seem to do anything at all.
All I can think is to try a new shimano chain, but I feel like I'm pouring money down the sink at the moment and getting nowhere. Any suggestions on what else to check?
If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.
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OK, so I'm going to say this quietly in case the gods are listening, but it seems to be fixed. All I did was take off the crankset and put it back on, so it's possible I'd over-tightened (or maybe under-tightened, but less likely) the hollowtech II preload cap.
I'm praying that's it, but can anyone explain to me how in the **** over-tightening the bottom bracket would cause that sort of noise and rear derailleur kick in the cassette? I don't see any logical link at all.
I can't think of anything else I did differently this time apart from...oh no hang on, I forgot - I put one more tiiiny half-spacer on the rear cassette. I sure I read somewhere about the aksiums needing some weird 2mm spacer or something so maybe that's what's made the difference. That would make more sense, but I'd already tried that combination of spacers before and it made no difference. There is also still the same amount of "play" ie. tiny rocking on the cassette as before the extra spacer went on.
Best guess, combination of the shop straightening the hanger and the extra tiiiny spacer is what has made the difference.
Any final thoughts welcome but if it stays fixed, thanks to everyone for your help. We appear to be there. It's still not the quietest drivechain I've owned, but it's within the "normal" range I'd say.
Tiny spacer - can I claim my mince pie? The lockring won't lock the cassette on firmly if spacers are missing, as it will bottom out on the freehub body instead of fully loading onto the cassette.
Yes but you'll have to collect it from 2m away and we have to be doing exercise at the time.
There was no difference in actual movement of the cassette on the freehub before vs after the additional spacer. At least not that I could tell. Could there have been movement between sprockets perhaps? Not that I can see how that would cause the noise I was seeing. Eugh...
Anyway I'm going to try not to breathe on the cassette for a few days and hopefully the fix will stick.
Glad it's sorted. I'd be tempted to source a slightly thicker spacer and make sure that there is zero play in the cassette and no clunking sound when first putting the power down. That lock ring needs quite a bit of force to tighten down properly and compress the cassette cogs into a solid block.
Thanks HoarseMann. I take your point and agree for actual riding, but to be honest I still don't really see why I was getting all this noise due to a "missing" 1mm spacer, noting the noise was coming when the bike was on the stand not under power.
Why has the cassette 1mm sideways made a difference? As the derailleur is adjustable, all that has really changed is the chainline, but only a tiiiiny amount.
I suspect I've changed something else in truth without realising eg. lock ring torque/wheel alignment in dropouts or similar, and that is what has made the difference. Like I said the bike shop couldn't put their finger on an actual cause either, although credit to them, they did ask if I had the 1mm spacer on me, which I didn't at the time.
Could be that the cassette looked and felt tight, but it wasn't quite enough without the spacer. Fingers crossed you'll be gliding along in blissful silence on the next ride
I think I might just keep it to look at rather than riding it and having to go through all that again.
To take the shifter out of the equation, use your hand on the cable to shift the rear derailleur up the cassette to see if you can set it into a good path. Also it sounds more like a cassette/hub issue then a drivetrain issue. I would try a 10 speed shimano hub wheel that doesn't introduce and play into the cassette...
Thanks Guts - no amount of adjustment with the barrel when in a single gear would quieten the noise, so I just couldn't see it being the shifter anyway. It does seem to have been somethign with the spacer/cassette as you intimate.
Are they definitely 105 shifters you are using?
The reason I ask is that I have a new Tiagra 10 speed rear derailleur which wouldn't work with my old 105 shifters due different pull ratios. Almost identical problem.
Thanks Grahmd. yep. 105 5700 - matches the cassette, chain, front derailleur and crankset, all 5700
What has the rear derailleur got to do with pull ratios? A derailleur moves freely between two extremes and the shifter does the indexing. As long as the indexing matches the spacing of the sprockets the derailleur will work.
You assume derailers all pivot on their axes an equal distance to each other for a given amount of cable pulled through them.
Shimano 10 speed and earlier had a cable pull of 2.4mm or more, and derailer ratio of 1.7mm for every 1mm pulled - 11 speed has a pull of 2.7mm and a ratio of 1.4mm
I am no expert, so perhaps I should have said they have differing indexes. I can categorically state that new new Tiagra RD does not work with old 105 levers. You can reach limits of cassette but does not settle mid range, very similar to the video.
So anyone needs above RD message me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkZxPIZ1ngY&ab_channel=ParkTool
How to Adjust a Rear Derailleur – Limit Screws & Indexing - by the park tool guy with a mustache - start at the start and finish at the end, do all steps
Sounds to me like it's the 'B' derailleur screw that adjusts the space between cogs and the jockey wheels. If the top jockey wheel is too close to the cassette then there's not enough space for the chain to go smoothly from around the cog to the top jockey wheel. That and maybe the chain needs to be slightly longer (put in an extra quick-link to easily test that).
A few questions from me...
- has it always made this noise, if not, when did the noise start?
- what is the frame you are using, and how long are the chainstays?
- How big are your chain rings, and is there any difference in noise when using little or big ring?
For me, if you've changed everything out and there is no difference, then there is something fundamentaly wrong somewhere. By the sounds of it, the only constant appears to be the frame, you and the bike shop.
That said, what is the lube you are using there... it looks kinda funny?
Hi Jimmy
Frame - yes I agree, but the local shop checked frame alignment and they said it was fine. Also a carbon frame, which I assume breaks rather than bends!
OK, very interesting.
Chainstays a re short, but not ridiculous... the shorter the stay, the more volatile the gearing as there is less chain to absorb any alignment / chain line issues.
The chain ring question was aligned to the above... all about the distance / angle of chain to the rear mech.
A couple of things I'd suggest checking. First, are your jockey wheels in the right way around? I ask as they are directional.
I'd also hazard a bet that if you changed to a long cage mech, the problem would go away.
The video does not show anything obvious. Have you been able to identify where the skipping is happening? This is what I'd focus on for now.
Is it skipping on the bottom jockey wheel, or on the cassette, or indeed on the chainring?
Thanks Jimmy - whilst on this journey I did notice I had reinstalled the tension jockey wheel backwards. Was delighted that I might have found the cause until I reversed it and...no change. I'm pretty sure the guide pulley is non-directional? Plus I tried with a different (short cage) derailleur and got the same sound.
I'll have another stare at it in slow mo and see if I can see anything new with your suggestions in mind.
Can you take a better video? Use SLO-mo on your phone, and rest it steadily on something. I had similar noise that was a link catching slightly on the next larger sprocket as it came up to engage. Tooth on the larger sprocket was ever so slightly bent.
Presumably all the standard stuff is checked - no missing spacers, lock ring tight.
When you say 'messing with' b screw, is it set correctly? Is the screw bearing on the correct lug on the frame? Is the lug on the dropout/frame good? With 105 I've never found it to be too much of an issue, but SRAM Eagle is very fussy to b screw.
Thank Dinfinity. Yes all the standard stuff checked, and new cassette tried too with same result. I did have a bit of catching as you describe during this current nighmare a while back but it seems to have gone away now.
Re. B screw - yes I think it's bearing in the right place; there is a nib on the end of the hanger arm which it seats into (photo attached). When I say it's not working, I normally expect to see some obvious movement of the derailleur arm when screwing in and out, but I see very little. With a bit of triple-checking, it does seem to make a small difference once I've run through the gears and back to the largest sprocket, so does seem to be ok. Like I say though I have tried with another derailleur and it was the same.
I think I might need to take it to a more road-focused bike shop.
I will have a go at a better video.
So you've replaced every part of the drive train - cassette, hub/wheels, chain, rear mech, chainset - and it's still happening?
Yes although in many combinations never all at the same time as it doesnt seem to make any difference. All combinations however have either been with the original chain (shimano 5700, less than 0.75 wear - my measure only goes down to 0.75) or the new 10 speed SRAM. Haven't tried the a new Shimano chain, but that's currently my last option.
If all the components of the drivetrain being changed doesn't make a difference, the only thing left is your shifter - perhaps this is worn out and the indexing distances are all out of whack
Thanks Nick, yes I have been looking sideways at my shifter too, but surely even if the indexing was out of whack I should still be able to use the barrell adjusters to get at least one sprocket to run without this infernal clicking, no?
I can't believe it can be alignment as the setup is basically Scott stock out of the factory. I swear I'm going to lose it....
I think the clues are that
Are you getting a little chain suck on the chainring
Good shout, Nick T, but no. I haven't tried changing out the crankset/chainrings though. I guess it's not impossible that's the cause.
Just for info, I replaced my Ultegra crankset with new 105. No improvement ☹
Ditto. Just tried a near-new crankset and identical.
It must be a big clue here that the noise goes away when the tension is off the chain. Suggests to me the chain isn't meshing properly with something. I might just break out the new shimano chain and see if that makes the difference. Although the original chain has no stretch to speak of and makes the same noise as the new SRAM chain.
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