Consultation Doc on Weights and Measures

Rich_cb wrote:

IMO it makes sense to sell things that have standards based on imperial units in imperial units (eg lumber) and anything else in metric. More than happy to leave it to the free market to decide what people want. Doubt we'll see much change at all.

I'd go for using metric for everything just to avoid confusion. By all means call it 2x4, but have the actual size specified in mm (which I think it is anyway). Similarly, there's nothing wrong with being sold a "pint" as long as it's measured in ml.

Imperial units are awkward to use and have a dodgy name as well, so let's just stop using them for actual measuring even if we continue to refer to a pint of milk etc.

If you're selling it labelled as 2x4 then you've got an imperial measurement on it anyway which is all that will change with this legislation. Same with pints etc.

I've no issue with putting a metric measurement as well but when international standards are in imperial units it makes no sense whatsoever to not use those standards as they are.

Rich_cb wrote:

If you're selling it labelled as 2x4 then you've got an imperial measurement on it anyway which is all that will change with this legislation. Same with pints etc. I've no issue with putting a metric measurement as well but when international standards are in imperial units it makes no sense whatsoever to not use those standards as they are.

I don't think the international standards are in imperial units and just because it's called "2x4" doesn't mean that it has to be measured in inches. Computer parts are often "mis-labelled" in MB or GB, but actually measured in Mebibytes (MiB) or Gigibytes (GiB).

Incidentally, the name "2x4" is confusing because that's not the actual size sold - the "standard" used to be 1 5/8 x 3 3/4 inches and is now closer to 1 1/2 x  3 1/2 inches or 38 x 89 mm.

This highlights a problem with imperial units - it's a bad idea to do calculations using them as you have to check whether it's the actual size or a historic size. If you use metric units then it's far simpler and everyone agrees on exactly what they mean.

Edit: It's about time I started on my "cup size" rant with U.S. recipes. It's so much easier to measure dry ingredients by weight than it is to use volume as some ingredients (e.g. porridge oats) may have different densities according to how the packet has been handled. Also, what cup are they talking about?

The problem is that Imperial units are confusing and very few other countries actually use them.

The USA has it's own units which are different to Imperial.  Hence why no Brit has ever been impressed with a pint of beer in an American bar.

Same for gallons.  Planes have crashed because they've requested a certain number of units of fuel only to get US gallons instead of Imperial ones.

You mention lumber.  Well it's worth looking up the size of a 2x4 because it might not be what you think it is.  Even in the USA.

Usually when people talk about using Imperial they only mean a subset that they're familiar with.

Everything that matters is measured in metric because it's a system.  That's why we, the UK, started moving to metric well before we ever joined the EEC.

This is just another "dead cat" to distract from the fact that it's one law for high level Tories and another law for you.

Next I expect them to try to make out that twin bathroom taps are somehow patriotic and mixer taps are part of an EU plot.

I don't think there's any serious call for all units to be imperial.

Metric makes more sense in most instances.

When a standard exists in imperial units however it makes sense to use that standard as specified rather than converting it to metric.

By all means have both measurements on the label but there's no good reason to deliberately exclude the established standard.

I think Rees-Mogg is serious when he insists that civil servants send out reports using old imperial units.

I agree with you that Imperial units are fine for marketing but for an actual system of interlinked units they really suck.

e.g. if you've ever done any metal work, how many incompatible imperial/US screw thread standards are there vs the single ISO Metric standard? (hint it's a lot even if you just stick to the ones coming from the UK).

My point with lumber is that a 2x4 isn't 2"x4", that's just what we colloquially call them.  Even the Americans call them that but they are actually a different size there too.

How many different lengths called "mile" are there?  How many of those are actually still in use? (at least 3 off the top of my head).

Standardising everything on metric just gets rid of so many headaches.

When Rees-Mogg talks about bringing imperial back I just see it as another dead-cat to distract from things like the PPE Fast Track corruption scandles at the expense of making the country less productive.

Everything that matters is measured in metric.  Mixing unit types didn't work for NASA or the US military.  We'd be fools to go back to it.

lio wrote:

How many different lengths called "mile" are there?  How many of those are actually still in use? (at least 3 off the top of my head).

Mile, nautical mile, country mile?

chrisonatrike wrote:

lio wrote:

How many different lengths called "mile" are there?  How many of those are actually still in use? (at least 3 off the top of my head).

Mile, nautical mile, country mile?

Quote:

The mile, sometimes the international mile or statute mile to distinguish it from other miles, is a British imperial unit and US customary unit of distance; both are based on the older English unit of length equal to 5,280 English feet, or 1,760 yards. The statute mile was standardised between the British Commonwealth and the United States by an international agreement in 1959, when it was formally redefined with respect to SI units as exactly 1,609.344 metres.

With qualifiers, mile is also used to describe or translate a wide range of units derived from or roughly equivalent to the Roman mile, such as the nautical mile (now 1.852 km exactly), the Italian mile (roughly 1.852 km), and the Chinese mile (now 500 m exactly). The Romans divided their mile into 5,000 Roman feet but the greater importance of furlongs in Elizabethan-era England meant that the statute mile was made equivalent to 8 furlongs or 5,280 feet in 1593. This form of the mile then spread across the British Empire, some successor states of which continue to employ the mile. The US Geological Survey now employs the metre for official purposes, but legacy data from its 1927 geodetic datum has meant that a separate US survey mile (6336/3937 km) continues to see some use, although it will be officially phased out in 2022. While most countries replaced the mile with the kilometre when switching to the International System of Units (SI), the international mile continues to be used in some countries, such as Liberia, the United Kingdom, the United States, and a number of countries with fewer than one million inhabitants, most of which are UK or US territories or have close historical ties with the UK or US.

Even worse is that you need a conversion table to go between U.S. MPG to UK MPG. Also, "mile" doesn't even have an agreed upon short-form (it is supposedly "Mi" but no-one seems to use it). UK road signs often use "M" to mean miles except when they use it to mean metres. Imperial units make little to no sense and just sow confusion wherever they're used.

I detest Imperial units - I'd get rid of them along with the monarchy.

I doubt we'll be ditching our ell-wands or Windsors soon.  I suppose you should be glad we're not reverting to pre-decimal currency.  Besides a laissez-faire muddle is the British way.  Like the UK not being an imperial power - except having the British overseas territories (and Crown dependencies) - oh and sharing our queen.

Besides it doesn't do to be too revolutionary, just look where you could end up [time] [calendar]!

chrisonatrike wrote:

I doubt we'll be ditching our ell-wands or Windsors soon.  I suppose you should be glad we're not reverting to pre-decimal currency.  Besides a laissez-faire muddle is the British way.  Like the UK not being an imperial power - except having the British overseas territories (and Crown dependencies) - oh and sharing our queen.

Besides it doesn't do to be too revolutionary, just look where you could end up [time] [calendar]!

I always thought that the Discordian calendar made a lot of sense. To be honest, our current system of timekeeping is a complete mess - have a look at these falsehoods: https://gist.github.com/timvisee/fcda9bbdff88d45cc9061606b4b923ca

Time?  Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so. (For Brooksby)

Camo-mile?

lio wrote:

Next I expect them to try to make out that twin bathroom taps are somehow patriotic and mixer taps are part of an EU plot.

 

This seems to have been and continue to be most people's opinion since the 1970s anyway. Even people who are pro-EU.

create virtual doctor bot

I don't think it's got anything to do with this section of legislation but I'd definitely question a pint of beer and milk.  But then it's a no from me to Baileys also.

Is that a no to one of these then?

I almost got blagged the last trip to the supermarket:

https://www.beer52.com/shop/product/1007

hirsute wrote:

Tea Stop

You want to talk but you don't want to talk about bikes? do it here!

Ah yes I see, thanks. 

mark1a wrote:

I was looking for a cycling reference and couldn't find one. 

It clearly affects all cyclists, I want to retain my right to go distances in kms but still climb in feet!

All your 700Cs might become 29ers.

A few market traders - that's all. What an irrelevance!!

And purveyors of pedals, ball bearings, headsets!!

do you buy milk or beer in pints, or buy it in litres ? do you ask for a quarter pounder burger or 113g ?

Im not sure what the point of the consultation is, or even if its that big a thing anyway it just seems to something that creates excitable people on both sides of the debate, when really the majority of us (and that includes people who have only ever been taught metric systems in school) switch between metric & imperial in our daily lives with no issue whatsoever

the government just needed to quietly remove the legal bar on selling loose food in metric measures, and let the market decide what it wants to do, I suspect it would carry on as it is now comfortably trading in metric and imperial.

Awavey wrote:

Im not sure what the point of the consultation is

Giving the government the opportunity to shout loudly about 'benefits of Brexit' and distract people from talking about other more problematic things.