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"How is this possible?" Fiona Kolbinger shocks Strava with 428km ride averaging 30.5km/h; Cav's TDF return?; 'Mr Loophole' plugs tabard petition on Radio 4; Cycling DnB DJ makes pre-match coverage; Railway bridge infilling furore + more on the live blog

Jack Sexty is running your Monday live blog today for old time's sake, with perhaps the occasional contribution from other members of the team if he needs to sneak off and edit the site again...
14 June 2021, 15:02
'Cargo bike mum' blog article: your thoughts and opinions
riders-picture-courtesy-sophie-gauthereau

We've had plenty of thoughtful and interesting feedback to the excellent blog article penned for road.cc by Sylvia Gauthereau, the cycling policy campaigner who was the victim of a social media pile-on after being photographed riding an e-cargo bike on the pavement with her daughter in the cargo box. 

brooksby said: "IMO part of the problem is how so many motorists appear to think that if a parent has their child with them, then it is somehow the parent's fault for putting the child in harm's way regardless of whether it is the motorist who is causing or threatening to cause harm."

jh2727 commented: "I found that when I had a child seat on my bike I tended to get given a lot more space - even when I was only using it to carry a rucksack. That said, I see quite a few secondary school kids riding school on my morning commute and they get treated like shit by motorists. The only school kids that are given any space on the road the road by motorists are the ones that ride in packs pulling wheelies.  I have also been mom-splained* for being irresponsible enough to tow my daughter on a tag-along on the road.

"*mom-splainer being a mother (and it always is) who feels (and is unable to resist) the urge to critize the parenting of people she doesn't know."

Have you read the article? If you haven't yet, we'd recommend taking 10 minutes to do so here

14 June 2021, 14:46
Drivers "should be sent back to the classroom to improve road safety for cycling", say children in Scottish road safety report
Children cycling in pop-up lane (YouTube)

The nationwide 'Changing Gears' report, commissioned by Cycling Scotland and co-designed by Children in Scotland, was the first to be produced in collaboration with children and young people. It revealed that some youngsters surveyed thought that drivers should receive extra lessons on driving safely near people on bikes. 

Others mentioned that there was a lack of safe places to cycle such as well maintained cycle paths and trails, while others suggested that there should be more signs reminding drivers to slow down. 

Christopher Johnson, Head of Training and Education, Cycling Scotland said: “Being responsible for the national cycle training programme for school children, Bikeability Scotland, we wanted to provide a mechanism where children could tell us their thoughts and feelings on cycling and road safety. 

"Partnering with Children in Scotland was the ideal opportunity to realise these aims, ensuring that even the methodology of the research was co-designed with children. 

"The findings of the report made very interesting reading, and demonstrate the important of listening to children. The report will help to inform our programmes and policies going forward.”

14 June 2021, 14:30
London Cycling Campaign targeting media appearances with top five "obnoxious, controversial, and over the top" transport policy ideas

Perhaps inspired by the coverage a certain legal professional has been getting recently, London Cycling Campaign asked its Twitter followers for ideas "to get on the radio". Popular entries included negative road pricing so cyclists and pedestrians would be paid for their journeys, compulsory high-vis for cars and 100 hours of on-the-road cycling for those wanting to pass a driving test. This one topped the LCC spice rating... 

14 June 2021, 13:56
'Mr Loophole' lawyer Nick Freeman pops up on BBC Radio 4 to plug cyclist and e-scooter rider ID petition
Nick Freeman 2 - via Facebook

Following an appearance on Talkradio last week to talk about his petition, the lawyer Nick Freeman, who became well known for preventing dangerous celebrity drivers from receiving bans on technicalities, also spoke on Radio 4 this morning. 

Presenter Nick Robinson opened with: "If you've ever cursed a cyclist going through a red light or riding onto a pavement and felt powerless, you might like the sound of a proposal for a new cyclist registration scheme which would make anyone riding a bike display a registration number, the equivalent of a car number plate, so they can be held accountable for how they ride their bikes."

Repeating his widely-panned 'numbered tabard' idea that he has suggested since at least 2015, Freeman explains how it would work: "There would be a similar system to which that operates for motor cars. Each cyclist would be required to wear a registered tabard with a registration number on the back, so that if there was an offence committed, a member of the public would be able to obtain that information and report it to the police. 

"The police would then send out a section 172 notice, which is the same notice which is sent out to a driver who is the registered keeper of a motor car, and there would be a legal obligation to furnish information as to who was cycling at the time."

When Robinson says that car registration and "popping to the shops on your bike" with a numbered tabard are "not quite the same" Freeman fails to answer the question, instead saying he wants to promote "a harmonious and safe environment for all people" with his idea. 

Kevin O' Sullivan, a lawyer specialising in cyclists and cycling, tells Robinson that Freeman's idea will reduce rates of cycling, adding: "In those few cases where irresponsible cycling happens, they're mostly a danger to themselves."

Freeman's latest appearance has received quite a backlash on social media, with Guardian political correspondent Peter Walker listing numerous reasons why the scheme could be problematic. Thomas Penny added: "The suggestion that any motorist slightly irritated by a cyclist could report them to the police is also completely unsustainable. I couldn't believe they were giving it airtime"... 

14 June 2021, 12:13
Are we famous now? A response video to a response video on our '8 things they don’t tell you about disc brakes' video

Our latest video has led to some lively debate over on our YouTube channel - and cycling YouTuber Waynos Fotos has even taken the time to record his own video about it... 

In response, we'll say that there wasn't really a great deal of response to the video itself - marks out of 10 for Becca's excellent presenting, ambience, the stunning filming and photography? Waynos' video appears to be more of a critique of disc brakes on road bikes in general, but who are we to argue if road.cc gets a mention? Anyway, I'm off for a reduced lunch break so I can spend the rest of it sorting out my disc brake rub...

14 June 2021, 11:31
The BBC's cycling foreign correspondent Anna Holligan rides "the most football crazed street in The Hague"

From drum & bass + cycling to reading the news + cycling, Netherlands-based reporter Anna Holligan takes us through a neighbourhood in The Hague where residents have turned the streets into a sea of orange to mark the country's first appearance at a major football tournament since the 2014 World Cup. 

For those who aren't aware, Holligan posts daily news reports on her Twitter feed titled "Dutch news from the cycle path", where she does pretty much what it says on the tin by reading the day's news while she rides her electric cargo bike. And here's how she does it... 

14 June 2021, 11:16
Wishing road.cc tech writer and presenter Liam a strong recovery!
strength training for cyclists tag image

Unfortunately our own Liam Cahill hit a pothole at quite a speed over the weekend, "using his head as a sort of rudimentary brake" in the process. Thankfully Liam was riding with others who got him help ASAP, and by Sunday evening he was recovering at home with some BBQ. 

Feel free to leave Liam your best wishes in the comments! 

14 June 2021, 10:57
Bristol's foremost cycling drum & bass DJ makes it onto the BBC's England pre-match coverage

Dom Whiting's "proudest moment" came in the build-up to England's 1-0 victory over Croatia yesterday, as he made a guest appearance on the BBC's match coverage around half an hour before kick-off. 

We see Whiting riding his DJ-modified cargo bike around the country, waving the St George's flag and playing numerous patriotic songs as fans cheer back at him. According to our resident cycling drum & bass fan Oli Pendrey the appearance was a tad underwhelming compared to some of Whiting's regular mobile DJ gigs, claiming that his Cardiff set at the weekend was very entertaining and full of genuine jungle bangers. You can watch over 90 minutes of it here if you so wish to do so... 

14 June 2021, 11:50
Another sunny weekend, another case of a cyclist being intimidated by a motorists in London’s Richmond Park...
14 June 2021, 10:41
Railway bridge infilling furore - petition update on filling of Musgrave bridge in Cumbria generates huge backlash
railway bridge in-filling - via change org

The latest update to a petition aimed at preventing Highways England from filling in heritage railway bridges around the UK has provoked a furious response. 

The update to the 'Protect our railway heritage from Highways England's wrecking ball' petition, posted on 12th June, claims that it's looking "increasingly likely" efforts to save Great Musgrave bridge in Cumbria from being filled in will be lost: 

"Highways England started to infill this bridge on 24 May. It does not have planning permission and the local authority has twice asked it to stop. But it has continued with this vandalism regardless, citing Permitted Development powers which only facilitate temporary works in emergency situations presenting a risk of death or injury", said the petition's author. 

One commented: "They are doing the same to a railway tunnel on the old Bradford - Queensbury - Halifax line. They started to pour concrete down a ventilation shaft but had to stop after a local outcry. There are local plans to incorporate the tunnel into part of a cycleway between Bradford and Halifax but it seems that they are waiting to rush in and completely fill it, ignoring the fact that most local people want to keep it open."

The petition has attracted over 13,000 signatures so far, and says that while the UK’s network of foot and cycle routes "has brought new life to many old railways over the past 50 years", Highways England has plans to demolish or infill 3,200 of them. 

The author adds: "By adding your voice, the loudest possible message can be sent to Highways England and the Department for Transport: these assets must not be put beyond use if they could play a positive future transport role and all plans to do so must be subject to appropriate public scrutiny."

14 June 2021, 10:21
Much-loved retro jersey specialists Prendas Ciclismo to "transform business" - full story to follow
la vie claire jersey details - via Prendas

After 25 years it's time for change according to the owners, and it's generally sad news for Prendas fans - full story to follow soon. 

> The story of La Vie Claire's classic jersey, voted the greatest of all time

14 June 2021, 09:55
More of Fiona Kolbinger's recent leisurely rides + reaction so far
fiona kolbinger strava upload 24 may.PNG

Strava was impressed and it seems our followers are too, with plenty commenting on the extraordinary talents of the 26-year-old German doctor/ultra cyclist. Scrolling further down Kolbinger's Strava page reveals the monster rides aren't just occasional either - the upload above from 24th May appears to have been a solo effort, with 312km rode at a pace of 28.6km/h. Between 10th-13th May, she completed back-to-back huge rides of 295km, 291km, 342km and 165km, displaying the endurance and consistency that gave her that epic Transcon victory two years ago. 

Capture.PNG

On our Twitter page Alex White simply described the effort as "insane", while Rich_cb says Kolbinger is going to have to "up her game" - we detect a hint of sarcasm, perhaps in reference to this controversial article from last week... 

14 June 2021, 08:31
2019 Transcontinental Race champ Fiona Kolbinger leaves Strava speechless with "ridiculous" 428km ride averaging 30.5km/h
fiona kolbinger ride 14 june.PNG

It appears the postponement of the eighth Transcon ultra race to 2022 hasn't exactly led to its current champion taking her foot off the gas, as Fiona Kolbinger continues to put in huge mileage undertaken at incredible speeds. The latest one has been described as her most impressive yet, a 14 hour jaunt with a total distance of over 428km (266 miles) undertaken at a frightening average speed of 30.5km/h (18.9mph). 

We can see from Kolbinger's Strava upload that the total time her Garmin was running was 16 hours, meaning she took around two hours' break over the day. The particularly high average speed for a ride of this distance could have been helped by the fact that Kolbinger appeared to be riding with others, allowing them to draft each other to save some energy if they were riding as a group. 

Kolbinger's followers had their minds blown by this latest upload, with one commenting: "I don't even understand how this is physically possible!"

Another said: "How the heck do you maintain 30kph for 14 hours with 5000 elevation. I couldn't do that on an Ebike."

14 June 2021, 08:22
"Done? Nah mate": All the love for Mark Cavendish (and more speculation) after latest victory rolls back the years

Cavendish added yet another victory to his impressive comeback season at the Tour of Belgium, with teammate Remco Evenepoel taking the overall victory. As we reported at the weekend, it is still a possibility we might see Cav at the Tour de France if Sam Bennett doesn't recover from injury, and while being sceptical he didn't exactly deny it in this interview... 

...but boss Patrick Lefevere says Cav's contract will need to be renegotiated to make that happen, plus Lefevere's general feeling is that the Tour will be "too hard" for Cavendish. 

Still, we can dream and so can Cav's fans. The world of cycling is loving seeing the Manxman back at the top of his game. 

cav comments.PNG

 

Arriving at road.cc in 2017 via 220 Triathlon Magazine, Jack dipped his toe in most jobs on the site and over at eBikeTips before being named the new editor of road.cc in 2020, much to his surprise. His cycling life began during his students days, when he cobbled together a few hundred quid off the back of a hard winter selling hats (long story) and bought his first road bike - a Trek 1.1 that was quickly relegated to winter steed, before it was sadly pinched a few years later. Creatively replacing it with a Trek 1.2, Jack mostly rides this bike around local cycle paths nowadays, but when he wants to get the racer out and be competitive his preferred events are time trials, sportives, triathlons and pogo sticking - the latter being another long story.  

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57 comments

Avatar
mpdouglas | 2 years ago
3 likes

Surely we have been mis-spelling Nick Freeman's nickname for quite some time now. He is quite clearly "Mr Poophole", given that all of his thinking and spoken words seem to emanate from his sphincter.

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essexian replied to Lance ꜱtrongarm | 2 years ago
6 likes

But perhaps bored by some pointless trolling which followed it?

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eburtthebike | 2 years ago
7 likes

I had the misfortune to hear the R4 item with Mr Loophole and the other lawyer, and it was pretty pathetic, and I can understand why Carlton Reed turned it down.

The worst thing is that the BBC do these populist, car-centric, entirely without merit articles but they have never, to my knowledge, done a single article on the benefits of cycling, individual, local, national and global, despite Nick Robinson saying that he was a cyclist himself.

It starts at 2:21:37 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000wyt9

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Sriracha replied to eburtthebike | 2 years ago
7 likes

It's insidious. It almost does not matter who "wins" the debate here. The question debated sets the agenda. The best the cycling lobby can hope for in such an agenda is to avoid "taking a hit". It would take a debater of rare talent to turn this question on its head and actually reframe the debate. But the BBC can fein ignorance and say they had "for and against", impartiality is served.

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eburtthebike replied to Sriracha | 2 years ago
7 likes

Sriracha wrote:

It's insidious. It almost does not matter who "wins" the debate here. The question debated sets the agenda. The best the cycling lobby can hope for in such an agenda is to avoid "taking a hit". It would take a debater of rare talent to turn this question on its head and actually reframe the debate. But the BBC can fein ignorance and say they had "for and against", impartiality is served.

There was another article on R4 this evening (approximately 17:22) about the traffic rebounding since covid, with deliveries, public transport and driving discussed for about 6 or 7 minutes, but guess which mode of transport didn't even get a mention, despite the fact that it has mushroomed in the last year?*

*No prizes.

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eburtthebike replied to Sriracha | 2 years ago
4 likes

Sriracha wrote:

But the BBC can fein ignorance and say they had "for and against", impartiality is served.

Isn't it time that all the cycling groups got together and made an official complaint to the BBC governers?  This has gone on for far too long, forty years at least, and isn't getting any better.

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Dave Dave replied to eburtthebike | 2 years ago
0 likes

No, the last thing cycling groups need is to ruin their credibility by saying insane shit like 'the BBC is biased against us'. Get a grip.

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TheBillder replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
1 like

Cycling groups should probably work on influencing rather than bashing.

But let's see which other groups claim BBC bias and how it's going for them...

Brexiteers: got their wish but still seem to want more

SNP: near-monopoly of power in Scotland

Right wing of the Tory party: pretty happy at the moment, with immense influence over the past 10+ years

R Murdoch esq.

All the right of centre press: still going despite the headwinds the industry faces (and conveniently hypocritical about Bashir)

I can't actually think of a group that has suffered by bashing the BBC. What it really needs is honest feedback and a few reminders of the need for balance, but there are plenty of people who'd be glad to see the back of an organisation that is at least broadly aimed at impartiality.

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eburtthebike replied to TheBillder | 2 years ago
3 likes

TheBillder wrote:

I can't actually think of a group that has suffered by bashing the BBC. What it really needs is honest feedback and a few reminders of the need for balance, but there are plenty of people who'd be glad to see the back of an organisation that is at least broadly aimed at impartiality.

I can think of a group that has suffered a bashing by the BBC;Labour under Corbyn.

As someone who has given the BBC feedback for something like forty years, with very pointed reminders about balance and bias, I can assure you that it is a complete, total and utter waste of time.  As Kate Adie said in her book, the BBC complaints system exists for the sole purpose of exonerating its employees.

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Captain Badger replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
3 likes
Dave Dave wrote:

No, the last thing cycling groups need is to ruin their credibility by saying insane shit like 'the BBC is biased'. Get a grip.

Siri, what's the definition of Poe's Law?

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Mungecrundle replied to eburtthebike | 2 years ago
0 likes

What it is time for, is for any cycling group asked onto public media to put forward a coherent, properly prepared spokesperson. The R4 segment was cringeworthy from the pro cycling point of view and Nick Freeman should be the easiest shill for the car lobby to destroy in any argument surrounding road safety and risks to pedestrians.

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iandusud | 2 years ago
5 likes

Anna Holligan not wearing hi-viz or a helmet - has she got some sort of death wish? Totally irresponsable!!! (Tongue firmly planted in cheek).

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Secret_squirrel | 2 years ago
0 likes

Much as I like the Anna Holligan piece, I'm not sure its a good thing.  Presuming she is riding the bike herself, and its not a closed streeet for filming, and there's no stoker out of shot its a bit irresponsible, and far worse than say taking a phone call.  Imagine the reaction from this site if she did it whilst driving a car.

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Tired of the tr... replied to Secret_squirrel | 2 years ago
3 likes

Interesting point... I've only seen two videos, but:

She's not really interacting with the device, is she? Presumably the two cameras are mounted on the handlebar and she starts them at the beginning of the ride, and she just chats away and edits them later. So technically it's more like the helmet/handlebar camera videos (without all the swearing and shouting in the UK). She's not looking at a screen or manipulating the device.

That she talks about world politics is not really an issue, we all think about all sorts of things or chat (if in a group) when we cycle on quiet paths and it doesn't stop us from paying attention, and you can see her interacting with other road users and the environment just like any cyclist would. Presumably when something on the roads needs more of her attention she would intuitively stop talking and edit that out later.

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Secret_squirrel | 2 years ago
3 likes

Yikes.  Best wishes to Liam GWS.

He should have stuck to hill climbs (as per his latest vid), maybe its just me but I cant go fast enough up hills to hurt myself on pot holes.   3

 

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eburtthebike | 2 years ago
5 likes

If the PM himself is totally in favour of cycling, and we are in a parliamentary admitted climate crisis, how the hell does anyone, even the petrolheads at Highways England, justify filling in potentially vital cycling links?

Please sign the petition if you haven't already.

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Dave Dave replied to eburtthebike | 2 years ago
0 likes

Unfortunately the petition doesn't explain what's wrong or what should be done differently. By the sound of it, restoring these bridges properly costs a lot. Infilling is cheap, and removing it doesn't significantly add to the cost of restoring them later if necessary. It may even be cheaper to infill the bridge and add a new cycle bridge over the road, given the different loads involved.

Are they actually blocking existing routes? That would be very odd, I agree.

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Secret_squirrel replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
4 likes

@Dave Dave.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick.

Its my understanding that the bridges generally arent in immediate need of repairing and thats the main reason HE are being called out for abuse of their emergency powers.   They are also applying a higher than necessary (or existing) weight limit as an excuse for "danger".  It smacks of a quick and dirty fix for a longer term problem.

Also I believe most of the potential routes go "though" the infilled bits, so its going to be a lot harder/impossible to safely seperate existing bridge stone/concrete from infill concrete after the fact.

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Dave Dave replied to Secret_squirrel | 2 years ago
0 likes
Secret_squirrel wrote:

@Dave Dave.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick.

Its my understanding that the bridges generally arent in immediate need of repairing and thats the main reason HE are being called out for abuse of their emergency powers.   They are also applying a higher than necessary (or existing) weight limit as an excuse for "danger".  It smacks of a quick and dirty fix for a longer term problem.

Also I believe most of the potential routes go "though" the infilled bits, so its going to be a lot harder/impossible to safely seperate existing bridge stone/concrete from infill concrete after the fact.

What is the supposed motivation for HE engaging in the conspiracy you suggest?

As for removing infill later, it's largely compacted aggregate. It really won't be particularly difficult to do. Digging out concrete is harder, but not by enough to matter on the scale of work involved in restoring a bridge.

Is it possible that our disagreement is based on you drastically underestimating the amount of work involved in fixing a masonry bridge?

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Awavey replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
0 likes
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Dave Dave replied to Awavey | 2 years ago
0 likes
Awavey wrote:

GIYF Highways England Musgrave bridge... http://www.railwayramblers.org.uk/10th-jun-2021-latest-press-release-fro...

"Repointing would cost around £15-20K, whilst Highways England’s infilling work has a contract value of £124K."

ROFL. So this entire story is based on someone dropping a couple of zeros from the cost of restoration. That's a laughably wrong figure. 250k-2.5m is about the right ballpark; depends what needs doing, but obviously it's not just repointing (which alone costs far more than infill).

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wycombewheeler replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
6 likes

Dave Dave wrote:

Unfortunately the petition doesn't explain what's wrong or what should be done differently. By the sound of it, restoring these bridges properly costs a lot. Infilling is cheap, and removing it doesn't significantly add to the cost of restoring them later if necessary. It may even be cheaper to infill the bridge and add a new cycle bridge over the road, given the different loads involved.

Are they actually blocking existing routes? That would be very odd, I agree.

the road bridge goes over the redundant railway, and now any future cycle route should go over the road? climing 5m out of the cutting and then a further 5.5m to clear the road.

seems very inefficient.

Bridge in the photo looks perfectly sound in not in danger of collapse, unless highways england has an agenda for increasing the weight limit of the bridge (on what appears to be a small rural lane) to allow larger vehicles.

And breaking out any infill is likely to have more impact on the strength of the bridge than leaving it alone, meaning no route wil be possible in the future.

It's a scandal that these transport corridors are being lost.

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Dave Dave replied to wycombewheeler | 2 years ago
0 likes

"Bridge in the photo looks perfectly sound in not in danger of collapse"

Lol. Structural engineering is a bit harder than that.

The petition mentions that the bridge needs major works.

I don't think digging out infill is hard. Not compared to fixing the bridge properly.

Thing is, we have these legacy bridges where it was cheaper and easier to pass a train under a road, and now the train isn't there anymore. It is far cheaper to turn the bridge into an embankment and send cyclists over the top. Going up and down 5m isn't a problem with nice long approaches.

It just doesn't seem to make sense to choose a very expensive option instead of far cheaper ones that achieve the same things (to a close approximation). It is daft to spend large amounts of money now just in case in future there might be a reason to, when it's no more expensive to spend tge money then.

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wycombewheeler replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
4 likes

Dave Dave wrote:

"Bridge in the photo looks perfectly sound in not in danger of collapse" Lol. Structural engineering is a bit harder than that. The petition mentions that the bridge needs major works. I don't think digging out infill is hard. Not compared to fixing the bridge properly. Thing is, we have these legacy bridges where it was cheaper and easier to pass a train under a road, and now the train isn't there anymore. It is far cheaper to turn the bridge into an embankment and send cyclists over the top. Going up and down 5m isn't a problem with nice long approaches. It just doesn't seem to make sense to choose a very expensive option instead of far cheaper ones that achieve the same things (to a close approximation). It is daft to spend large amounts of money now just in case in future there might be a reason to, when it's no more expensive to spend tge money then.

just going up 5m, means the cycle route now has a level crossing with the road, where currently it could have grade seperation.

If the bridge is not sound, I do not believe that an aggregate infill below the bridge is an adequate long term solution. Concreting the space could be, but then it would be much mroe difficult to remove.

As to the justification, perhaps short term money saving and avoiding additional transport routes added to their manintenance burden.

Once these routes are lost they will never come back into service.

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Dave Dave replied to wycombewheeler | 2 years ago
1 like

wycombewheeler wrote:

just going up 5m, means the cycle route now has a level crossing with the road, where currently it could have grade seperation.

Yes, silly of me. Up to double that. Although that's the worst-case scenario, and it's still a comparable gradient to major London bridges with reasonable-length approaches.

I wonder if there's a compromise involving infill packed around a new, cyclist-sized concrete arch.

wycombewheeler wrote:

If the bridge is not sound, I do not believe that an aggregate infill below the bridge is an adequate long term solution. Concreting the space could be, but then it would be much mroe difficult to remove.

Evidently structural engineering is counter-intuitive here. A big pile of gravel, with sides banked at less than the angle of repose, is very stable indeed. They don't just pack the archway, they bank it up either side too. Doing so is radically cheaper than fixing and maintaining the bridge.

If anyone's interested, there's a very readable introductory book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Structures-Things-Dont-Fall-Down/dp/0306812835

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wycombewheeler replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
0 likes

Dave Dave wrote:

I wonder if there's a compromise involving infill packed around a new, cyclist-sized concrete arch.

If they were doing that I wouldn't complain. When we are only talking about infilling a bridge rather than a long tunnel it could potentially be formed from a relatively small number of 2.4m precast rings

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wycombewheeler replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
0 likes
Dave Dave wrote:

wycombewheeler wrote:

just going up 5m, means the cycle route now has a level crossing with the road, where currently it could have grade seperation.

Yes, silly of me. Up to double that. Although that's the worst-case scenario, and it's still a comparable gradient to major London bridges with reasonable-length approaches.

I wonder if there's a compromise involving infill packed around a new, cyclist-sized concrete arch.

wycombewheeler wrote:

If the bridge is not sound, I do not believe that an aggregate infill below the bridge is an adequate long term solution. Concreting the space could be, but then it would be much mroe difficult to remove.

Evidently structural engineering is counter-intuitive here. A big pile of gravel, with sides banked at less than the angle of repose, is very stable indeed. They don't just pack the archway, they bank it up either side too. Doing so is radically cheaper than fixing and maintaining the bridge.

If anyone's interested, there's a very readable introductory book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Structures-Things-Dont-Fall-Down/dp/0306812835

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/infilling-historic-bridges-is-so...

Didn't seem to have gone down well with the publication of the institution of civil engineers

Avatar
brooksby replied to wycombewheeler | 2 years ago
0 likes

wycombewheeler wrote:
Dave Dave wrote:

wycombewheeler wrote:

just going up 5m, means the cycle route now has a level crossing with the road, where currently it could have grade seperation.

Yes, silly of me. Up to double that. Although that's the worst-case scenario, and it's still a comparable gradient to major London bridges with reasonable-length approaches.

I wonder if there's a compromise involving infill packed around a new, cyclist-sized concrete arch.

wycombewheeler wrote:

If the bridge is not sound, I do not believe that an aggregate infill below the bridge is an adequate long term solution. Concreting the space could be, but then it would be much mroe difficult to remove.

Evidently structural engineering is counter-intuitive here. A big pile of gravel, with sides banked at less than the angle of repose, is very stable indeed. They don't just pack the archway, they bank it up either side too. Doing so is radically cheaper than fixing and maintaining the bridge.

If anyone's interested, there's a very readable introductory book on the subject:

https://www.amazon.com/Structures-Things-Dont-Fall-Down/dp/0306812835

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/infilling-historic-bridges-is-so... Didn't seem to have gone down well with the publication of the institution of civil engineers

And there's this, in the Grauniad:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/jul/21/highways-england-may-hav...

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nikkispoke replied to Dave Dave | 2 years ago
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In some cases such as the Bradford to Halifax tunnel it is because HE are responsible for the structure and pumping out water that enters the tunnel this is very small cost but comes from HE budget. The cost of infill is far greater but removes the need for inspections and checking equipment. I do not know why they are being so irresponsible when they know the structures will be developed for other uses it is probably as they have argued for a budget to carry out the work and must use it for this purpose. They are now a 'semi-private' company whose shares are owned by the Government ? with a five year plan and seem very dogmatic irrespective of the cost to others or damage that any actions will create.

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Dave Dave replied to nikkispoke | 2 years ago
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nikkispoke wrote:

In some cases such as the Bradford to Halifax tunnel it is because HE are responsible for the structure and pumping out water that enters the tunnel this is very small cost but comes from HE budget. The cost of infill is far greater but removes the need for inspections and checking equipment.

Quite. Ongoing costs for restoring the bridge are a big part of what makes it expensive.

nikkispoke wrote:

I do not know why they are being so irresponsible when they know the structures will be developed for other uses it is probably as they have argued for a budget to carry out the work and must use it for this purpose. They are now a 'semi-private' company whose shares are owned by the Government ? with a five year plan and seem very dogmatic irrespective of the cost to others or damage that any actions will create.

I've already said I don't think they are being irresponsible, because this doesn't add significantly to the cost of doing something else later. And I wonder if their mandate permits doing anything else? It seems pretty clear that an unbiased comparison of the costs vastly favours this approach. 

I'm pretty sure HE's structure is analogous to Network Rail (and other similar infrastructure bodies). They are an arm's-length government-owned company. Setting it up that way is about management philosophies (and/or politics), not ownership.

We've seen that the campaigners against the work are drastically underestimating the costs of what they want, so there's no real mystery. It's much, much cheaper in the long run to do this now, even if it means digging out the infill later. 

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