“Cycling infrastructure by people who've never used a bicycle”: Cyclist slams “utter shambles and non-inclusive” kissing gates obstructing a shared-use path

Well I'm glad that this cycling (and ramblin') malarkey has kept you hale and hearty!  Long may it continue.

I don't have a specific "solution".  These cases probably need multiple measures and likely suitable responses vary from place to place.  And across time in any place - perhaps the local tribe / era of bandits may come to an end for a time?  (The roaring motorbikes seemed to be seasonal where I lived before).

So balancing sufficiently effective disuading of racers and tippers (completely eliminating / guaranteeing this would likely be very expensive or have other side-effects) vs. our current crop of barriers which get in everyone's way, completely stop some people getting through AND aren't always effective at fixing the issue they're supposed to solve.

Is there the effect of "if you don't experience a problem yourself it doesn't exist - or at best it's very hard to appreciate how it affects others" in play here?  Something I - like everyone else - am susceptible to of course!

The specific solution is the removal of *all* unlawful barriers, and an appropriate resourcing of police plus an adjustment of policing priorities.

There are a very small number of Councils addressing the issue to different extents (eg Kings Lynn, Sheffield, York), but Sustrans are very much the leaders. This is from their latest Annual Report:

There are thousands of restrictive barriers on traffic-free sections of the Network that prevent many people from accessing and enjoying their local routes. This year we removed or redesigned 377 barriers across the country, exceeding our target of 218. This included 106 on our own land. Thanks to a phenomenal effort from our volunteers, we also audited and mapped every remaining barrier along 5,100 traffic-free miles, so that we can better understand whether they need to be removed or redesigned.
https://www.sustrans.org.uk/media/12437/sustrans-annual-report-2022-23.pdf

That 377 is from an identified total of 16,000 on the NCN by audit in 2018. A likely figure for all Rights of Way or other paths in England is approximately half a million barriers. 

Cugel wrote:

The 4 bikes I have and ride regularly vary in weight: 9kg - 10.5kg - 14kg - 20kg. I'm 74 but still able to lift the 20kg high enough to put it on the platform on which all our bikes are stored, which is 1.1 metres above floor level.

That's great.  Do you think you could position yourself next to all the cycle barriers and lift up the bikes of people not lucky enough to be as fit as you?

eburtthebike wrote:

Cugel wrote:

The 4 bikes I have and ride regularly vary in weight: 9kg - 10.5kg - 14kg - 20kg. I'm 74 but still able to lift the 20kg high enough to put it on the platform on which all our bikes are stored, which is 1.1 metres above floor level.

That's great.  Do you think you could position yourself next to all the cycle barriers and lift up the bikes of people not lucky enough to be as fit as you?

This sounds like a good opportunity for a poor ole pensioner such as myself to earn a few extra pund notes. Also, I can keep fit-strong with no gym fee!

When would you like me to start? I require £25 per hour plus perks, including a small hut to sit in when its wet and sandwiches + coffee (proper stuff, none o' that junkfud & brown drank) delivered by Brauchel in his best lycra outfit. 

We were hoping you'd just do it for the coffee and biscuits plus the opportunity to share your thoughts with passers-by. (Possibly as they hoped you'd just get on and lift their bike over for them...)

Everyone would appreciate you collaring the local free-booters (this is always a thing - just a question of whether it's significant). Some would definitely appreciate you not assuming they couldn't manage themselves!

Wouldn't it be better though if more people who really couldn't pass without your good services had more reason to assume they could just get more places? Without having to check beforehand that there were no such obstacles? (and if there were - that they could be sure a friendly local anti-Gandalf was in attendance?)

chrisonatrike wrote:

We were hoping you'd just do it for the coffee and biscuits plus the opportunity to share your thoughts with passers-by. (Possibly as they hoped you'd just get on and lift their bike over for them...) Everyone would appreciate you collaring the local free-booters (this is always a thing - just a question of whether it's significant). Some would definitely appreciate you not assuming they couldn't manage themselves! Wouldn't it be better though if more people who really couldn't pass without your good services had more reason to assume they could just get more places? Without having to check beforehand that there were no such obstacles? (and if there were - that they could be sure a friendly local anti-Gandalf was in attendance?)

Oh yes, everything should and could be better, perfek even. Well, this was supposedly what would happen post-Fuxit, as I recall. Friendly unicorns would hoist heavy bikes over kissing gates, perhaps even bestowing a unicorn kiss to the lucky bike riders, making them forever healthy, wealthy and wise.

Alas, some time ago it was pointed out to me (probably in the politics & philosophy 101 class) that there is no such thing as a perfek world and never will be, especially with humans in it. On the contrary, the place will be highly imperfect, even in this very lucky time & place of late & post C20th Blighty, which even now is rapidly going downhill from Attlee-land to a new dark age, back to the norm of internecine strife, general degradation and lives which may generally turn out to be nasty, brutish and short - even for the aristocrats, who already are knifing each other in the back.

Still, optimism can help one get through the day without crying, snuffling dejectedly or just sitting in a dark corner sucking one's thumb and waiting for the next small disaster tossed into the historical maelstrom gaining the suck to drown us all in worldwide misery once more. Yes.

A few misplaced kissing gates seems like a handy distraction from larger troubles, though, eh?

>A few misplaced kissing gates seems like a handy distraction from larger troubles, though, eh?

Audit the entries and exits to your local Green Flag Parks and see how many are accessible.

My local Green Flag country park of 200 acres, with at least 20k people within walking distances, has about 15 entrances and *all* of them are barriered off with chicanes or kissing gates "because motorbikes". They keep power wheelchairs out, but not E-Motorbikes; that probably represents - in addition to the discrimination - about £100k pissed away on a Nimby fairy story.

mattw wrote:

>A few misplaced kissing gates seems like a handy distraction from larger troubles, though, eh?

Audit the entries and exits to your local Green Flag Parks and see how many are accessible.

My local Green Flag country park of 200 acres, with at least 20k people within walking distances, has about 15 entrances and *all* of them are barriered off with chicanes or kissing gates "because motorbikes". They keep power wheelchairs out, but not E-Motorbikes; that probably represents - in addition to the discrimination - about £100k pissed away on a Nimby fairy story.

No doubt the problem is a real one. But how to practically resolve it? Frothing indignation won't do it, one feels.

Perhaps, as ever, a fix to the more fundamental underlying problem would be best, although not easy to arrive at when there's so many hard&fast attitudes about on both sides of any issue. The more fundamental problem is that there's not really an effective democratic process at any level of politics in Britain. Nor is there an appetite for ordinary people to do politics, at any level.

What there is seems to be red-faced shouts of, "Where are my rights" with little thought about the practicalities or costs of getting them. Not much thought either about the wider implications of getting what's demanded.

Not to say that those without power and who don't fit the standardised model of a modern consumer-producer aren't casually discriminated against. But taking the very narrow view of, "I want my rights to do what I want at all times" is no better, really, than the nimbyism you complain of in those who, in this case, installed barriers to paths because they thought it would improve and protect them from damage and misuse.

What do you perssonally propose to do to improve the matter you feel so exercised about, yourself? Who will pay for the changes? Will you make any attempt to consider anything other than your desire for unfettered access, especially any increased vulnerability of the paths users to those who are potentially dangerous and damaging? 

Cugel wrote:

Alas, some time ago it was pointed out to me (probably in the politics & philosophy 101 class) that there is no such thing as a perfek world and never will be, especially with humans in it. [...]

Did they also cover "not letting perfect become the enemy of good" - or perhaps the philosophy of Candide e.g. "right now is better than it was, in this fickle world, so what's the use of aiming higher?"

Course, there's always someone who wants fries with that too!

Cugel wrote:

A few misplaced kissing gates seems like a handy distraction from larger troubles, though, eh?

Yes, my last unicorn ran off and I'm sitting on my own typing at a screen again, and getting older, and going to die at some unknown point, so there's that!

Wait - I'm going to die?!  Aaaaaargh!!

Cugel wrote:

eburtthebike wrote:

Cugel wrote:

The 4 bikes I have and ride regularly vary in weight: 9kg - 10.5kg - 14kg - 20kg. I'm 74 but still able to lift the 20kg high enough to put it on the platform on which all our bikes are stored, which is 1.1 metres above floor level.

That's great.  Do you think you could position yourself next to all the cycle barriers and lift up the bikes of people not lucky enough to be as fit as you?

This sounds like a good opportunity for a poor ole pensioner such as myself to earn a few extra pund notes. Also, I can keep fit-strong with no gym fee!

When would you like me to start? I require £25 per hour plus perks, including a small hut to sit in when its wet and sandwiches + coffee (proper stuff, none o' that junkfud & brown drank) delivered by Brauchel in his best lycra outfit. 

I'm sure the local authority that installed the gate would be happy to agree to your terms.  Why don't you write to them and offer them your services?

Please.  Go on.  Do it!

I'd love to see the reply.

eburtthebike wrote:

Cugel wrote:

eburtthebike wrote:

Cugel wrote:

The 4 bikes I have and ride regularly vary in weight: 9kg - 10.5kg - 14kg - 20kg. I'm 74 but still able to lift the 20kg high enough to put it on the platform on which all our bikes are stored, which is 1.1 metres above floor level.

That's great.  Do you think you could position yourself next to all the cycle barriers and lift up the bikes of people not lucky enough to be as fit as you?

This sounds like a good opportunity for a poor ole pensioner such as myself to earn a few extra pund notes. Also, I can keep fit-strong with no gym fee!

When would you like me to start? I require £25 per hour plus perks, including a small hut to sit in when its wet and sandwiches + coffee (proper stuff, none o' that junkfud & brown drank) delivered by Brauchel in his best lycra outfit. 

I'm sure the local authority that installed the gate would be happy to agree to your terms.  Why don't you write to them and offer them your services?

Please.  Go on.  Do it!

I'd love to see the reply.

Well, just now I'm too busy picking up litter, including the fly-tipped stuff found in the forest entrances.  And they pay me nowt for doing so, the rascals!

Sounds like you're trying to undercut my occasional job clearing glass off the paths - for the same wages!

Good for you - I might not fight you for it.

The answer prescribed in national guidelines is bollards at 1.5m spacings with straight and level approaches from both sides, with more restrictive measures only being accessible where a *serious* *current* problem exists.

In reality one complaint from a local Nimby and most Councils jerk their knee, install something as restrictive as they think they can get away with, and mobility impaired people, parents with prams and people riding non-standard cycles who can't lift it over the obstruction can go f*ck themselves.

Then the Council forget about it, and do nothing for the next 30 years.

I FOId Worcestershire Council a few weeks ago, and they couldn't even remember the illegal barrier their Cabinet Member for Transport was showing off to the local paper in 2021. They could only think of TWO (FFS).

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/please_supply_location_tyoe_deta#...

Cugel wrote:

Seriously? Bicycle riders can't figure out how to get past those gates? One technique is to up end the bike on to the back wheel to reduce it's length then walk it through. Another is to lift the whole bike over the fence, although this is no good for the weaklings.

One of the best things you've rambled on this site!

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

Cugel wrote:

Seriously? Bicycle riders can't figure out how to get past those gates? One technique is to up end the bike on to the back wheel to reduce it's length then walk it through. Another is to lift the whole bike over the fence, although this is no good for the weaklings.

One of the best things you've rambled on this site!

Strewth - support from LifL-piffler! I'll change me views immediately!! 

Cugel wrote:

Left_is_for_Losers wrote:

Cugel wrote:

Seriously? Bicycle riders can't figure out how to get past those gates? One technique is to up end the bike on to the back wheel to reduce it's length then walk it through. Another is to lift the whole bike over the fence, although this is no good for the weaklings.

One of the best things you've rambled on this site!

Strewth - support from LifL-piffler! I'll change me views immediately!! 

I don't know what's up today. This is the second time my views align with someone here on something. 

.

He does tend to ramble, somewhat, don't he?

.

Ablist or what.
Does not even meet the minimum for wheelchair access

To be fair, the design appears to allow the use of a radar key to allow mobility aids through (though I confess I don't know who is entitled to have a radar key).

Anyone with mobility issues, and IBS problems. The latter is probably easier to get as there doesn't seems to a proof needed. £5 plus P&P. However it is a largish key so not sure how saddlebag friendly it might be. 

£2.50 off Amazon to anyone, but RADAR gates are not accessible.

https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/inclusive-cycle-infrastructure-guide-r...

"the weaklings"

So, we can add "people with mobility or strength problems" to "women" on the Big List Of People Cugel Finds Contemptible.

All the tiresome, overwrought, cod-vernacular language in the world doesn't hide what people really are. 

Brauchsel wrote:

"the weaklings"

So, we can add "people with mobility or strength problems" to "women" on the Big List Of People Cugel Finds Contemptible.

All the tiresome, overwrought, cod-vernacular language in the world doesn't hide what people really are. 

Here is Brauchel once more, attempting to do Orwellian double-speak in which those who would have equal opps for women are somehow misogies whilst Brauchel, who thinks women should confine themselves to looking after babies and cooking his dinner, is a champion of what he believes fervently is "the weaker sex".

But no worries - I have put Brauchel at the top of my "contemptibles" list. In fact, he seems to be the only entry.   

PS Free weight training lessons at wor hoose for any weaklings that feel the need, even Brauchy! (Mind, I can't promise to train his weak mind).

You can't do that with mudguards on.

the little onion wrote:

a quick complaint based on accessibility and disability should hopefully get that one removed.

Not in Worcester. Been tried.

They use the same 'justification' as the Canal and River Trust.

And that's obviously from a person who doesn't cycle.

Geordiepeddeler wrote:

And that's obviously from a person who doesn't cycle.

Would that be a bi-cycle?