Israel-Premier Tech cycling team confronted by pro-Palestine group at Tour of Britain, with more protests planned this week

As disgusting and abhorent as the October attack was, you need an incredibly narrow view of that situation to justify what Israel have done before and since.

Gbjbanjs wrote:

As disgusting and abhorent as the October attack was, you need an incredibly narrow view of that situation to justify what Israel have done before and since.

So they should have turned the other cheek? Accepted, shrugged and moved on? Would you have been happy with the UK adopting that approach during the Troubles or was it acceptable then?

The UK decided to negotiate with its sworn enemy the IRA and that brought an end to the Troubles. Or do you think that was also a mistake?

ErnieC wrote:

Gbjbanjs wrote:

As disgusting and abhorent as the October attack was, you need an incredibly narrow view of that situation to justify what Israel have done before and since.

So they should have turned the other cheek? Accepted, shrugged and moved on? Would you have been happy with the UK adopting that approach during the Troubles or was it acceptable then?

The UK decided to negotiate with its sworn enemy the IRA and that brought an end to the Troubles. Or do you think that was also a mistake?

Crazyhorse wrote:

ErnieC wrote:

Gbjbanjs wrote:

As disgusting and abhorent as the October attack was, you need an incredibly narrow view of that situation to justify what Israel have done before and since.

So they should have turned the other cheek? Accepted, shrugged and moved on? Would you have been happy with the UK adopting that approach during the Troubles or was it acceptable then?

The UK decided to negotiate with its sworn enemy the IRA and that brought an end to the Troubles. Or do you think that was also a mistake?

Eventually ...... after many years and after how many civilians killed by the UK?

A good 30-35,000 of the reported deaths can be accounted for exclusively with with the natural death rate (c6,000 a year in previous years) and 30,000 fighters (still leaves 25,000 fighters). The alternate estimate of civilian casualties is as low as 2,500 with many of those purposefully used as human shields by Hamas.

open_roads wrote:

A good 30-35,000 of the reported deaths can be accounted for exclusively with with the natural death rate (c6,000 a year in previous years) and 30,000 fighters (still leaves 25,000 fighters). The alternate estimate of civilian casualties is as low as 2,500 with many of those purposefully used as human shields by Hamas.

Actually a recent Lancet study estimates total fatalities as a result of this conflict could be as high as 186,000. That is including the many thousands estimated to have died in agony, alone, trapped in the rubble. See: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext#%20

Do you have a source for your estimate of just 2,500 dead please? 

open_roads wrote:

A good 30-35,000 of the reported deaths can be accounted for exclusively with with the natural death rate (c6,000 a year in previous years) and 30,000 fighters (still leaves 25,000 fighters). The alternate estimate of civilian casualties is as low as 2,500 with many of those purposefully used as human shields by Hamas.

The reported deaths as of the end of last month were 42,000 as a direct result of Israeli action, they do not include natural deaths. More than 16,000 of those were children and more than 10,000 were women. By your reckoning that must mean at least that 13,500 of the children killed and all of the women were terrorists? The human shield accusation is ludicrous, there are more than two million people in the Gaza strip with a population density equivalent to that of central London. Since the beginning of the current conflict Israel has fired over 50,000 bombs and missiles into this territory, civilian casualties are inevitable and claiming that there are only 2500 is ludicrous. It's simply impossible to carry out such mass bombing in such a densely populated area without killing very substantial numbers of civilians. If you believe that Israel's actions are justified and proportionate that's fine, we can debate that, but simply lying about the results of them doesn't help your case.

Er, correct me if I'm wrong but...

Israel has been illegally occupying Palestinian territory since at least 1967 as per subsequent UN Security Council resolutions following the 1967 war demanding an Israeli withdrawal. Israel has illegally occupied Palestinian territory for 57 years - FAR longer than Russia's (current) occupation of parts of Ukraine. In fact, Israel has been forcibly occupying Palestinian territories, including as a result of ethnic cleansing, since 1948 (i.e. for 76 years). Some might call that 'acts of aggression'??

john_smith wrote:

Some aspects are fairly clear-cut though. Russia was and is the aggressor. Israel was the victim of an appalling, unjustifiable attack last October, and a number of Israelis ars still being held hostage.

Israel is the aggressor. Unless you somehow believe history in Palestine only started on October 7th, 2023. And even if want you believe that, the Israeli response has horrifically over the top and genocidal - unlawful, and a crime against humanity.

One day, Netanyahu, Gallant, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir, and on down to the Sde Teiman celebrity-rapist soldier, et al, will hopefully face justice at Den Haag, and spend the rest of their days in Scheveningen prison.

Where they /won't/ be raped, beaten, put in stress positions and generally tortured; but will get more than enough food and drinks. Unlike the many tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians who Israel puts in prison.