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H2 and Rule 170 ... who is in the right here

https://youtu.be/tPXXPkUNuDw

Tonight, while commuting home I've stopped to let a pedestrian cross the road, and had a bit of an angry blast on the horn from the guy behind me.

Traffic light controlled roundabout; I'm taking second exit.
I've waited  until my lights have changed to green and rolled on ... as I'm rolling the next set of lights have turned green; this set is immediatley before my exit.
I'm rolling through the green, and there is a pedestrian waiting to cross my exit.

I roll to a stop to let the pedestrian cross.
Van behind me is not very impressed and gives a long blast on the horn.
I'm not impressed or intimidated by the van, and shout back "What?" followed by "Read the Highway Code".

There is no further communication between myself and the van driver, other than the driver raising both is hands in the exasperation gesture, and shaking his magic beans at me.
Driver then turns right at next roundabout (approx 67m) and goes and sits at a fuel pump.

My interpretation of H2 and Rule 170 is that I was correct to stop ... I was turning and the pedestrian was waiting to cross, ergo, I was correct to give way.

However ... all the illustrations relate to a side road off, and not an exit from a roundabout .. which makes me wonder if I was correct or not.
The junction has no traffic control for pedestrians, however there is drop down kerbage and tactile paving, and is also a shared pathway.

Now .. the question is ... was I right to stop?

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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23 comments

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Yorkshie Whippet | 1 year ago
6 likes

You clearly have not read the right Highway Code.

Rule 1 The Highway Code does not apply to me.

Rule 2. The Highway Code applies to everyone else.

Rule 3. Anyone who follows the Highway Code is an idiot and needs to learn to drive proper like.

Rule 4. If in doubt refer to Rule 1.

 

My work here is done 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

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PRSboy | 1 year ago
2 likes

What you did was courteous.  An attentive driver following should be looking in the direction of travel.  I don't see an issue, aside from the fact that 'allowing' a pedestrian to cross the road does expose them to danger, and I will generally only do it if I can effectively block the road to prevent someone from over/undertaking.

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OldRidgeback | 1 year ago
6 likes

I stopped to let a pedestrian cross the side road I was about to turn into just last week and got an angry beep from the driver behind me. I was on my motorbike, a large sportsbike, and while still a vulnerable road user, rather more visible than if I'd been on my Cannondale. You did the right thing, but as others have pointed out, the changes to the HC haven't been well communicated and many drivers didn't have enough knowledge of the HC even before these changes came in. As a vulnerable road user, you should also make sure you're safe. Not every driver drives as they should, as we all know.

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IanMSpencer | 1 year ago
5 likes

When trying to adopt this I've come across a couple of gotchas which mean that you do have to be circumspect:

1) right turn into a junction, if someone only becomes apparent as you start your turn, you risk blocking the oncoming lane.

2) Turning left, you need to adjust your thinking, because in the new world, you are more likely to need to stop, before a car appearing was normally enough to make pedestrians wait - not that you should ever have been driving in such a way as to risk running over a pedestrian, but I'm sure many a pedestrian has been forced to step back in the past.

3. On a roundabout you have to be mindful of traffic behind which will be anticipating you moving off the roundabout. A car continuing round a roundabout may not consider that you will potentially stop on the roundabout to allow pedestrians to cross, and will not be watching your exit, also with roundabouts having multiple decision points keeping clear observation behind is not so easy - the key mirror check on leaving is normally the nearside mirror to make sure nobody is trying to undercut you, but if you might stop, you've got a complete mirror check to fit in.

I suspect a driver hindered on the roundabout might be aggrieved that their passage is impeded by events not on their route.

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wycombewheeler replied to IanMSpencer | 1 year ago
2 likes

1) that's a shame, to be clear the reason oncoming traffic has t wait is because the driver did not make correct observations before starting

2) yes, drivers need to adjust their thinking

3) this is the crux - I would not apply rule 170 to a roundabout, since all exits are equal and none is therefore the side road. While I agree that in general a car continuing round will be looking at other things that an exit they are not taking, in this case the cylcist is in a lane for that exit, so a driver following would be in the same lane.

4) Infrastructure is at fault, traffic light roundabouts should have pedestrian lights for the crossings 

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6309769,-0.7549117,3a,75y,50.84h,71.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBKE4M7Ehr6-n10q3IUmdwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

or a safe pedestrian crossing (zebra) sufficiently back from the exit to not block the roundabout

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6309595,-0.7542669,3a,75y,70.77h,83.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssEEeT7_3rjfLnVghFSP9ww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

pedestrians should not need to wait for the roundabout to be empty to cross or have to guess which exit all the drivers will be taking, assuming 100% acurate signalling.

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IanMSpencer replied to wycombewheeler | 1 year ago
1 like

You assume that there is good visibility, the pedestrian could be hovering behind a car, halfway across the road - though to be fair this would always have been a stop scenario. More typically, a driver will be intent on traffic gaps and in chancing a gap will not really be in control. It is more recognising that a suitable gap has to include considering pedestrian (and cycle) activity and the reality is that is beyond many drivers and their patience.

But mainly,as you say, it is about adjusting thinking from cars having absolute right of passage where all others are expected to clear their path. It definitely does change driving style to actively seek out pedestrians to prioritise.

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HoarseMann | 1 year ago
6 likes

100% you were within your rights to stop for the pedestrian. A roundabout is considered to be its own circular carriageway, distinct from the adjoining roads and each entry/exit is a junction.

However, this has been poorly communicated in the recent highway code updates and people have different opinions on this. Whenever something can be debated, it usually means the rules are not clear enough.

So, with this in mind, I would say next time make the pedestrian wait. You are a vulnerable road user too, plus you do not have the mass nor the width to offer any protection to a pedestrian should a motorist fail to stop.

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Oldfatgit replied to HoarseMann | 1 year ago
3 likes

Having been hit before and left with life changing injuries, I think your last paragraph sums it up for me.

It's all very well being *right* ... but I really don't want to go through or put my family through, the pain and suffering following getting hit ... allowing a pedestrian to cross the road is not a hill I want to die on.

I suppose roundabouts are different in the way that people drive them; acceleration is earlier as sightlines tend to be better - if only we'd move to a road layout that puts a zebra crossing at each roundabout exit/ entrance...

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Mungecrundle | 1 year ago
11 likes

I'm sure that some will jump on this as an example of the revised HC causing confusion, but really it is very simple based on the hierarchy of road users. Peds are top of the pile, if in any doubt give them priority. As soon as some of the a-holes with driving licences start to understand this the roads will be far safer.

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NOtotheEU | 1 year ago
7 likes

In my opinion you were 100% correct in what you did. A few people who know a lot more than me have said roundabout exits are included in the HC advice in their opinion in various Youtube videos I've watched on the subject.

I've been stopping for peds since the changes as I turn into side roads and once at a roundabout exit and as of yet have had vehicles wait patiently behind me but I was nearly rear ended by a van when I stopped at a red light on the way home tonight.

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andystow replied to NOtotheEU | 1 year ago
3 likes

Exactly. Otherwise pedestrians would have to treat marked crossing points differently depending on if it's reasonably close to a roundabout exit or not. Imagine teaching children how to cross and having to explain this distinction.

Of course, as a pedestrian I'm still not going to trust my life to drivists stopping, nor teach children (mine are grown now, fortunately) to do so.

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Simon E | 1 year ago
11 likes

Rule 170 says: "give way to for pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning."

It could be argued that it was a road you were turning into, though I'm not sure it qualifies as such. I'd suggest that it was just a simple gesture - you chose to stop, you were not required to do so.

Rroundabouts, rule 185: "In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads"

The impatient bell-end behind you can shove his aggressive use of the horn up his arse.

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wycombewheeler replied to Simon E | 1 year ago
3 likes

Simon E wrote:

 

Rroundabouts, rule 185: "In all cases watch out for and give plenty of room to pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads"

The impatient bell-end behind you can shove his aggressive use of the horn up his arse.

https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/roundabouts.html

 rule 187, and in the case the pedestrian was not crossing but waiting to cross, this is different guidance to the rule 170

"watch out for and give plenty of room to

pedestrians who may be crossing the approach and exit roads" (187)

vs

"give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning" (170)

If the rules for roundabouts were intended to be the same (as some are arguing) then the text would be the same. It is not, because they do not want drivers stopping on roundabouts where following drivers are splitting their attention between the vehicle they are following, any traffic lights, their exit, and most importantly traffic coming round the roundabout from their right

However your last sentance is still correct, in all cases aggresive use of the horn due to impatience is wrong

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Sriracha replied to wycombewheeler | 1 year ago
2 likes

I'd agree. Roundabouts "work" for the same reasons motorways work, because they ignore all other road users besides motor vehicles, for which they work very well (mostly). But it all falls apart once you have traffic stopping unexpectedly. There was a good piece in the Guardian...
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/oct/19/traffic-lights-roundabout...
“Roundabouts are brilliant at moving car traffic, but not a safe space for people who cycle or are crossing on foot,” says Grant, who, mindful of the emotional nature of this issue, is careful to talk of “people who cycle” and “people who drive” rather than “cyclists” and “motorists”.

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chrisonabike replied to Sriracha | 1 year ago
2 likes

The whole point of roundabouts is a) high capacity for motor vehicles with b) good safety for that capacity.  So I agree.  Too much traffic - even just at peaks - the roundabout is not suitable for any vulnerable road users and a grade-separated alternative route for them should be provided.  This situation seems common in the UK.

Roundabouts can work with vulnerable users at the same level if they're designed right but there are then fairly low limits on their capacity.

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KDee replied to Simon E | 1 year ago
2 likes

Doesn't this have to do with the road markings? A side road will have the dashed white lines for both lanes. A roundabout will only have the dashed white lines indicating traffic joining the roundabout must give way. The lack of dashed white lines at the exit of a roundabout suggests a continuation of the carriageway.

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Hirsute replied to KDee | 1 year ago
3 likes

Probably going to need Hoarseman to comment but a lot of these technicalities are buried in the regs or highway markings detailed regs.

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HoarseMann replied to Hirsute | 1 year ago
1 like

I refer you to page 119 of the 'Manual for Streets'*; a junction is still a junction even if there are no road markings...

*(it's redacted, but it explicitly states that there is no statutory requirement to mark a road junction)

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HoarseMann replied to Hirsute | 1 year ago
3 likes

ooh, and page 87! Which describes the carriageway of a roundabout as circulatory and exiting as 'leaving the junction'...

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KDee replied to HoarseMann | 1 year ago
2 likes

So it's a junction then. I suppose the old phrase "approach with caution and prepare to stop" is the best policy anyway. 

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HoarseMann replied to KDee | 1 year ago
2 likes

Yes, it's considered a junction.

I did think the scenario where a very slow cyclist was using the outside lane of the roundabout to turn right is quite similar to a pedestrian crossing an entry/exit. Cars are supposed to slow/stop on the roundabout and allow a cyclist to cross their path.

The highway code has always said to 'watch out' for pedestrians crossing the entry/exits. Just like it says drivers joining the roundabout should look forwards and 'watch out' for vehicles already ahead of them on the roundabout. But it makes it sound like you're 'watching out' for a rule breaker!

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Simon_MacMichael replied to HoarseMann | 1 year ago
4 likes

Interesting discussion and we have the definitive answer here - it is a junction. But as mentioned above in the comments, whatever the Highway Code says, you can't assume drivers remember what they had to study to pass their driving test however many years ago, nor - due to the woeful lack of communication by the government - that they will be aware of the changes.

And then you have the issue that drivers entering a roundabout are focused on their exit, meaning that many simply will not be looking out for cyclists, or if they do, will often put their foot down to make the exit ahead of the rider ... see here for some examples 

https://road.cc/show/tags/nmotd-roundabout/151017

The roundabout I encounter most often while riding in London is Shepherds Bush, and even though it is traffic light controlled, there is no way am I cycling across that - eastbound, heading towards Holland Park from Shepherds Bush Green, I'd be cutting across the main motor vehicle flow, which heads onto the A3320, effectively an urban motorway.

So what I (and many other cyclists) do is take the bus station slip road, ride across it to the ramp up to the pedestrian crossing on the A3320, or take the underpass, then join Holland Park Avenue the other side.

Similar going westbound, where I need to be on right-hand-side of carriageway to get into the cycle lane. 

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Bungle_52 replied to Simon_MacMichael | 1 year ago
1 like

Thanks for the link.

It has been suggested that police are more likely to take action for careless driving at roundabouts so I looked through them. One was reported but had no feedback, one in Birmingham had no further action and Thames valley police sent a letter. Those were the only three reported.

Any plans for a similar analysis for other types of near misses and different forces?

 

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