Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal divides opinion with use of horn in overtaking video

MiserableBastard wrote:

Re Neal's bleating about being identified as a former kickball player: when some knuckle-dragging mouth-breather on Twitter is delivering a knowledge-free rant about cyclists, it's a safe bet he'll have a football team affiliation in his bio.

Football fandom is a community based on tribalism. I won't say it's inherently toxic, but it's not really surprising that it contains more than its fair share of people who bring their toxic tribalism to the roads too.

You're right about football's toxic tribalism.  Anyway, don't listen to anything Neal says, he used to play for Brighton.

HoarseMann wrote:

ooh eck, BlackBeltBarrister has weighed in on this now...

https://youtu.be/7lGz2SqPB7Y

It all starts out with reasoned comments - though almost entirely "get over it cyclists, horns just mean 'I am here' obvs!".  Which does seem to ignore an important chunk of reality.  Not far down and we're already into "how to identify these unaccountable cyclists and pedestrians" though...

EDIT - and then we're into bingo (or satire): e.g. "council's have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds putting in cycle lanes and duel use pavements to give cyclists a safe place to ride, away from traffic and they still insist on riding down the road right next to a cycle lane."

Yep! But this has got me thinking, are we on the brink of a revolution in horn use? Just like Daytime Running Lights for cars have encouraged more cyclists to use day bright lights, will cyclists adopt an audible warning for approaching drivers, notifying them of their presence on the road ahead (arguably more of an issue with in-car distractions these days).

If all cars now 'toot' to warn of their presence when overtaking, surely it's only right that cyclists can 'toot' a vehicle that's about to overtake? I'm thinking of a couple of loud air-horns aimed to the rear, hooked up to a Varia radar. Two short pips for a vehicle approaching at a normal speed and a long blast for one going a bit too quickly!

HoarseMann wrote:

Yep! But this has got me thinking, are we on the brink of a revolution in horn use? Just like Daytime Running Lights for cars have encouraged more cyclists to use day bright lights, will cyclists adopt an audible warning for approaching drivers, notifying them of their presence on the road ahead (arguably more of an issue with in-car distractions these days).

If all cars now 'toot' to warn of their presence when overtaking, surely it's only right that cyclists can 'toot' a vehicle that's about to overtake? I'm thinking of a couple of loud air-horns aimed to the rear, hooked up to a Varia radar. Two short pips for a vehicle approaching at a normal speed and a long blast for one going a bit too quickly!

There were a couple of thoughtful comments that didn't disagree with the use of the horn ("as a cyclist myself") but did point out that horns have got louder and noise pollution is a thing.

Along with members of the forum here should be prosecuted for spreading misleading information. Seems like Putin has still got access to YouTube.

IanMSpencer wrote:

Along with members of the forum here should be prosecuted for spreading misleading information. Seems like Putin has still got access to YouTube.

I believe he wishes to deny to others what he allows for himself.

the first 5 secs, he is using a clip thats at least a few years old out of context so  Im not going to watch the rest of it to boost that guys youtube algorithm

That raises another interesting point, the advanced driver recommended way of dealing with a blind bridge is to wind your window down and turn off any sound system because there is no point hooting if you can't hear another car do the same.

So in a cycling example, if a motorist thinks an audible warning is appropriate, what actions should a motorist take to be aware of any audible warnings from a cyclist - after all if a motorist heard the panicked cry in a group of "CAR DOWN" after hearing a call of "Car up - car through" they'd know the cyclist had spotted a serious threat.

Was taught much the same. The horn was never to be used after an incident in anger which as you say seems to be the norm nowadays. 

I think that as cyclists we have become so accustomed to someone leaning on their horn as they pass or when they're behind for about 30 seconds. That we now perceive in many cases the use of the horn as being aggressive. 

I've no issue with a quick toot from behind to make me aware or as they're preparing to pass. It really doesn't bother me. I do think that with the huge uptake in EVs  that instances like the one in Ashley's VT the use of the horn is a way forward. Maybe not so much  in the urban environment but the rural setting where roadies will find themselves. Wind blowing through ears, wearing of skull caps all of which dampen ambient noise, especially when a competent cyclist is hitting speeds of up to 20mph. This coupled with EV's being much quieter at higher speeds and also having a much more responsive and silent acceleration. The use of a horn may be useful. Having been caught out by Teslas lately has been unnerving and a quick beep would have been helpful.

I'm old enough to have learnt to drive in a car with the horn on the indicator stalk and owned a couple with the same set up.  I've found that the modern horn in the centre of the wheel is more difficult to control as you have to really push down with some force as opposed to the quick finger tap of old. Maybe that is something to do with the more aggressive use.  

'I was taught to drive using the  horn as a tool to alert other road users to your presence'.. you have left out the important proviso for using the horn; read the whole reason; 'The function of the horn is to alert other road users to your presence, when another road user poses a danger'. You should not use the horn to notify someone you are passing them.. it reeks of 'get out of my way, I'm coming through'.

Well said, Cap'n! 

I absolutely will not use my bell anymore. It incites violence. Whilst that is completely unreasonable, I'm a skinny middle aged woman and the last time I used it, on a shared use path being blocked by à group of five or six men, one of them, built like a brick shithouse, threatened to kill me whilst the others cheered him on. An extreme example but not the only one where people seem to get enraged by a bell. I'll try shouting 'excuse me' in my nicest voice and proceed with caution when I can. A bit like a vehicle behind bikes... oh... yeah....

Thugs and yobbo's will use any excuse to threaten and harass people; I don't use the bell, mainly because so many people have earplugs in, so can't hear a bell or a call; I just slow down to walking pace, edge alongside until they see me with their peripheral vision and most instinctively move aside at that point.

As I noted somewhere below, the buses in Paris have a delightful chiming bells that they use to warn cyclists when they are coming up behind them in the many shared lanes in that city, it works incredibly well, I've cycled a lot around there and you get a polite warning without feeling attacked. A polite "hello I'm here" bell on cars would work wonders for driver – cyclist/pedestrian interactions, I think.

I think context matters - if Paris has this prevailing culture of friendly warning bells then it follows that Paris residents would expect bells to be friendly. Conversely, travel to India and the horn is almost universally (and very frequently) used as a gesture of impatience. I don't think any warning sign or bell from road users in Britain could be seen friendly anymore, as the prevailing culture here is for horns showing aggression or impatience.

Well, Paris buses used not to have bells and they would give one the horn, if you'll pardon the expression, regularly, so people can adapt. It might also help if we adopted the French horn laws: within cities it is illegal (€35 fine rising to €150 for late payment) to use the horn for anything except to warn of immediate danger, and this is enforced, it's really noticeable these days how much quieter the streets are (in the old days the joke was how do you define a millisecond - it's the time between the traffic light turning green and a Parisian driver hitting the horn).

Maybe I'm an old (all of 27) cynic - but that does sound positive! All it'll take now is some sensible legislation...I'll hold my breath.

belugabob wrote:

The other option, which I usually employ, is to use a friendly vocal greeting - this is much more sociable and almost universally well received.

Not universally, have had a woman complain about calling good evening from a reasonable distance behind (so as not to startle her) and she claimed to have been startled and we should have used a bell.

The reality is that anything you do behind people startles them and their instinctive reaction is to be cross. My system on country is to call very loudly "Cyclists behind" from very far away, and they only just hear me and become aware that something is happening. Hopefully they are then far enough away that as they glance round they then gather their thoughts.

What actually disappoints me is the number who stop walking and take to the verge as if we are manic Range Rover drivers intent on ploughing them down.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I regularly get grief from pedestrians on a shared-use path for calling 'Excuse me - d'you mind if I pass?' etc. I just wish that we had a culture of quality shared-use and segregated infra, well-trained car drivers and a recognisable system of warning signs and calls. We wouldn't be in this mess then.