Bike at Bedtime: Colnago C59 Disc - the beginning of the end for rim brakes

What rotors would you recommend?

Assuming you are not trolling, what exactly do you have to gain by removing the choice from people who have other preferences or priorities than yours? Have you been hurt by rim brake users who have forced you to not ride disc brake road bikes when they became available on the market?

Also, I wonder what is the proportion of road bikers who have ever said to themselves "boy I wish I had better brakes on my road bike". I for one have never in my life thought it, in spite of climbing and descending a lot more passes in the French, Swiss and Italian Alps than the average disc brake user, and I'm also quite sure I've heard countless road bikers wishing their bike was some half a kg lighter.

"than the average disc brake user"

That's interesting, where do you get your data from to be able to define "the average disc brake user" or are you just making statistics up to suit your own bias and preferences?

Welsh boy wrote:

That's interesting, where do you get your data from to be able to define "the average disc brake user" or are you just making statistics up to suit your own bias and preferences?

Well to begin with, maybe a couple of the guys of my local club have climbed nearly as many passes as I did, one of them being a former pro rider who used to do one week tours back in the day. I am also the only one in my club to have climbed the Ventoux three times the same day (one from each side).

Otherwise, with some 30+ different passes in the French, Swiss and Italian Alps (including the likes of Cime de la Bonette, Col de l'Iseran, Col Agnel, Passo Stelvio or Passo Gavia, some of the highest in Europe), I am pretty confident to say I am above average from that point of view. Not that it matters anyway, as my point was merely that many of the disc brake adopters have never done any proper cycling on road mountains that would seriously push their brakes - rim or disc - to their actual limits, while nearly every road cyclist that I know wishes they had a lighter bike. Not to mention those who started road cycling recently and never owned a rim brake road bike, as they were advised that rim brakes are rubbish, let alone ride it in the mountains. Funnily enough, I know a couple of them, and they also wish they had lighter bikes - arguably for good reason since both of their road bikes weigh way north of 9 kg.

majikstone wrote:

Welsh boy wrote:

That's interesting, where do you get your data from to be able to define "the average disc brake user" or are you just making statistics up to suit your own bias and preferences?

Well to begin with, maybe a couple of the guys of my local club have climbed nearly as many passes as I did, one of them being a former pro rider who used to do one week tours back in the day. I am also the only one in my club to have climbed the Ventoux three times the same day (one from each side). Otherwise, with some 30+ different passes in the French, Swiss and Italian Alps (including the likes of Cime de la Bonette, Col de l'Iseran, Col Agnel, Passo Stelvio or Passo Gavia, some of the highest in Europe), I am pretty confident to say I am above average from that point of view. Not that it matters anyway, as my point was merely that many of the disc brake adopters have never done any proper cycling on road mountains that would seriously push their brakes - rim or disc - to their actual limits, while nearly every road cyclist that I know wishes they had a lighter bike. Not to mention those who started road cycling recently and never owned a rim brake road bike, as they were advised that rim brakes are rubbish, let alone ride it in the mountains. Funnily enough, I know a couple of them, and they also wish they had lighter bikes - arguably for good reason since both of their road bikes weigh way north of 9 kg.

Your bike would be even lighter without that self-blowing trumpet... 😁

mark1a wrote:

Your bike would be even lighter without that self-blowing trumpet... 😁

And I thought the OP had issues for believing people should be forced into buying products they don't need nor want.

Just wondering where the two other horsemen of the disc brake apocalypse are.

PS: back in the day I started cycling (some 15 years ago), the value of one's opinion on anything cycling related was directly proportional with their experience and achievements both on the bike and in the garage. Now apparently the average bloke who never climbed or descended a proper mountain road is entitled to his own opinion on the minimum required braking performance anyone should benefit from on their bikes. I assume it goes hand in hand with shouting at pro cyclists for not using the appropriate race strategy from the comfort of one's couch and with a couple of beers on the side.

I've descended many mountain passes on rim brakes and, more recently, quite a few on disc brakes. The discs are miles better. I won't say how long I've been cycling because that would reveal how terribly old I am. 😁

majikstone wrote:

some stuff

So how is it that Evenepoel is climbing so well on his disc-braked bike?

Vingegaard won the Tour de France riding a Cervelo S5 with disc brakes.

Every team in the WT peloton is using disc brakes and riders are still going uphill ridiculously fast.

I think you're conflating your own personal preference with what everyone should use. Naturally, we'd all love a lighter bike but weight is not the sole factor in choosing a road bike for the vast majority. And I bet no-one here has nailed their nutrition and training to be at their optimum weight or fitness, so shaving a few grammes off their bike is not going to make any real difference.

You could watch Martyn Ashton's amazing video above to marvel at what can be done with a road bike, regardless of the type of brake used.

Simon E wrote:

 I think you're conflating your own personal preference with what everyone should use. Naturally, we'd all love a lighter bike but weight is not the sole factor in choosing a road bike for the vast majority.

I have never claimed everyone should make my choices, have my priorities or ride the way I do. Moreover, my initial reply was in disgust to the OP claiming everybody should be forced into using disc brakes and that he is glad this is finally happening. Last, but not least, you are claiming that the vast majority of riders have other, more relevant criteria than bike weight when choosing a new bike, and I have merely claimed that most people I know - which is not the same as most people - wished to have lighter bikes, which is something you also agree with. Which is ironic, because as somebody who is fully aware that disc brakes offer more stopping power and arguably better modulation than rim brakes, I never wished to have better brakes on my bike. On top of that, having never personally heard any road cyclist using a modern road bike openly complaining about their bike's braking performance, I was frankly wondering what is the real proportion of road cyclists who actually have this issue. I am aware that some people actually complain about their bikes' braking performance - especially the minority who ride carbon rims and rim brakes, but there's a long way from some people to most people or to every single road biker.

All I am saying is that various people with various requirements, needs and priorities should be able to choose from a variety of different solutions to the same problem. This transition to disc brakes - and electronic groupsets for that matter - that the bike industry has finally forced upon us may have its financial benefits to the industry, as the lack of compatiblity with previous bikes and components will inevitably increase the sales on the long run. However, when I see cyclists such as the OP - again, assuming he was not just wildly trolling - enjoying the idea that everybody should be forced into buying products that they wouldn't have bought if they had a choice makes me sick.

And I am also saying that any opinion or judgement on the topic of rim or disc brake performance coming from people who never had a chance to push their brakes to the limit or to ride in environments where braking performance is relevant in any way has no relevance to me personally.

majikstone wrote:

And I am also saying that any opinion or judgement on the topic of rim or disc brake performance coming from people who never had a chance to push their brakes to the limit or to ride in environments where braking performance is relevant in any way has no relevance to me personally.

Can you give an example of an environment where braking performance isn't relevant? 

Rendel Harris wrote:

Can you give an example of an environment where braking performance isn't relevant? 

Any environment where you can afford to brake as early or as softly as you wish. Whether it's group rides, solo rides, or any activity that does not involve official timing and rankings and where braking one or two seconds earlier has no impact on the overall experience of the bike ride.

Also, the burden of proof when it comes to forcing (or convincing) people to adopt and especially buy anything new lies with those pushing the new solution. So it's up to you to prove to people who are still more than satisfied with the braking performance or their rim brakes and who rarely push those brakes to their actual limit not only that they would benefit from better brakes in a way that is relevant to them personally depending on their use cases, but also that the benefit is worth the extra cost, the extra weight penalty (explicit or implicit due to not affording the same component quality level for the same budget) or the various niggles (noisy braking, disc warping, disc rubbing, etc.).

Nobody has to defend or prove the fact that they are more than happy with their current status quo. It's those who are trying to change that status quo (even more so by force) that should convince every individual that the change is beneficial to them personally. Unlike the OP, I am not trying to convince anyone that my brake technology of choice is unarguably the best and should therefore be imposed upon anyone. Quite the contrary, I am merely arguing that anybody who believes that rim or disc or whatever kind of brakes are going to make every single road cyclist happier with their cycling experience, even more so for the same budget, is either trolling or has smoked some weird shit.

So I am sorry to conclude that it's not up to me to prove where and why me or any other road bike riders do not have anything objective or subjective to gain from better brakes. It's quite the other way round, and in the many years since all the cycling media and manufacturers have been raving about disc brake road bikes, time in which I have upgraded and replaced and tested quite a lot of various components, I have never, but absolutely never ended up in a situation where better braking would have made me more satisfied with my cycling experience, and I am far from being the only one to feel this way.

majikstone wrote:

Any environment where you can afford to brake as early or as softly as you wish. Whether it's group rides, solo rides, or any activity that does not involve official timing and rankings and where braking one or two seconds earlier has no impact on the overall experience of the bike ride.

That really is nonsense. I don't care if you're riding to the shops or descending the Alps (which I have done on both disc and rim braked bikes, by the way). Anyone who rides a bike for any length of time will at some point be forced to test their brakes to their limit, whether through their own error or someone else's.

For what it's worth I prefer rim brakes, at least on road bikes, and I shall be hanging on to my Ultegras until the frame that carries them wears out, but all this "I know better because I descend the Alps" stuff is nonsense; if I come home (in London) from one direction I have to descend a 12% hill with traffic lights in the middle, that tells you plenty about which brakes are up to the job.

Rendel Harris wrote:

That really is nonsense. I don't care if you're riding to the shops or descending the Alps (which I have done on both disc and rim braked bikes, by the way). Anyone who rides a bike for any length of time will at some point be forced to test their brakes to their limit, whether through their own error or someone else's.

Not if you ride in a way that allows you to anticipate errors (or lights turning red) and to leave enough margin so as to brake properly and safely no matter what happens. This mainly means preventively reducing your speed before traffic lights instead of bombing through them and braking at the last second if you had to, progressively braking way before a hairpin instead of braking at the last possible moment, reducing your overall cornering speed if the road conditions are unsuitable and may increase the risk for errors, increasing the distance between you and the riders in front on descents and on twisty roads, and also generally keeping your eyes open to the environment and traffic and adapting your speed to the dangers around you. Much as you would do, I don't know, in a car, at least according to the road code.

Car in which, by the way, you could have much, much better brakes than the ordinary steel disc brakes you find nowadays on most cars (and even some rear drum brakes), yet you don't have carbon-ceramic brakes in VW Polos because they are simply not necessary for regular driving.

Last, but not least, road cycling and commuting in London or any other cities as large are two different beasts, and thankfully I don't have to include any significant amount of urban riding or heavy traffic conditions in my road rides.

majikstone wrote:

Not if you ride in a way that allows you to anticipate errors (or lights turning red) and to leave enough margin so as to brake properly and safely no matter what happens.

This is again nonsense, I'm afraid. Yes one can prevent the need for emergency braking by anticipation and roadcraft, but you can't always "leave enough margin so as to brake properly and safely no matter what happens." Last time I was riding in the Forest of Dean a wild boar shot out of the roadside undergrowth right in front of me as I was descending at 40mph, should I have been descending at 10mph to anticipate? In terms of town riding, a friend narrowly escaped serious injury recently when a driver had a seizure and slewed across the road into her path from the oncoming lane from ten feet away, something she couldn't possibly anticipate. I could give you literally dozens of examples from my forty plus years of riding in town, country and mountains where I've had to test my brakes to their limits in emergencies that couldn't possibly be anticipated.

Rendel Harris wrote:

but you can't always "leave enough margin so as to brake properly and safely no matter what happens." [...] I could give you literally dozens of examples from my forty plus years of riding in town, country and mountains where I've had to test my brakes to their limits in emergencies that couldn't possibly be anticipated.

First of all, at no point have I said that such situations never occur. I have only said that the number of occasions such situations occur is low, and can be further reduced by preventive actions.

You seem to have been through dozens of such situations in fourty plus years of riding. In my past 15 years of road cycling, I've had to fully use my brakes in unavoidable situations maybe once a year, and only once they failed to stop me fully in time (although in that particular context it was entirely my fault for not watching the road ahead of me for a couple of seconds). I have done however do a minimum amount of city cycling, and as I've said previously, cycling in (big) cities is a different beast.

Perhaps I ride more prudently than you eo (for what it's worth, I rarely go over 40 mph on descents), perhaps I avoid cycling in crowded environments, perhaps I was luckier than you and others, so that I am (almost) always able to stop in time with my rim brakes. But this does not change the fact that under no circumstance would I willingly pay more money and/or accept to ride a heavier bike just so I can have better brakes, nor have I lived through situations where the maximum braking power of my rim brakes was insufficient.

And I am surely not the only one in this boat.

majikstone wrote:

You seem to have been through dozens of such situations in fourty plus years of riding. In my past 15 years of road cycling, I've had to fully use my brakes in unavoidable situations maybe once a year

If you'd been riding for forty years and had to do it once a year, that would add up to dozens of times, wouldn't it, so I don't think the "I'm probably safer than you" line really works there.

Rendel Harris wrote:

If you'd been riding for forty years and had to do it once a year, that would add up to dozens of times, wouldn't it, so I don't think the "I'm probably safer than you" line really works there.

Maybe once a year means less than once a year in my books, even as little as once every couple of years. But sure, if you wish to nitpick, round it up to precisely one incident per year and thus claim that in 40 years I would have been through 3.33 dozens of such incidents, which technically means "several dozens".

Which still does not change the fact that having to fully make use of all my available rim brake power a few dozen times in 40 years is not a reason for me to get better brakes. Having to fully make use of it once per ride (so technically about one hundred times per year) would maybe make me think about buying new brakes.

Which, in hindsight, is still slightly less than the frequency of me wishing my bike was lighter than the 8.5 kg it currently weighs with all its bells and whistles on, which happens more than once per ride - sure, partly due to the fact that I have to carry it up the stairs to the 3rd floor after nearly every single ride.

Quote:

But people need to be forced to use new things anyway.

Convenient for the bike industry that we're being forced to use something which just happens to cost significantly more and requires us to change our bikes wholesale rather than just being able to upgrade existing eh?  

Uh? Who is forcing you? You don't have to change the whole bike when the brake blocks wear out.

Sriracha wrote:

Uh? Who is forcing you? You don't have to change the whole bike when the brake blocks wear out.

Well, to begin with, the OP in his alternate universe where people should be forced to use disc brakes.

Otherwise, what am I going to do when I decide to buy a nice(r) and light(er) set of rim brake wheels (some sub 1500g aluminium ones that you can still find now from various brands) and no manufacturer is making any anymore or they cost double what they used to? What about when I decide to buy a new groupset that's at least as nice as the one it's replacing and all the available groupsets are 3+ kg boat anchors that cost at least double what I paid on an Ultegra R8000 or Campagnolo Centaur 11? I would also be concerned about buying a decent new frame, but between the titanium PlanetX Spitfire that I've bought a few months ago while it was on sale and the fact that my next frame will probably be custom built anyway with a suitable geometry, I should be covered for the next 30 years from that point of view.

Luckily enough, the used parts market should keep me covered for the next 10 years. I am planning to slowly but steadily start hoarding used parts in great condition (a pair or two of barely used wheels, another 11 speed mechanical groupset or a nice Chorus 12), maybe a carbon fork, so that I will a healthy backup of spares that the industry will ditch in the next few years. Maybe I'll even end up owning a barely used mechanical Super Record groupset some dentist is ditching so that they can replace it with the latest semihydrelectrowireless counterpart for less than I would pay on a brand new 105 Di2 or Rival AXS.

But on the long run, the used parts market will eventually dry out, my hoarded stockpile of bike parts will eventually dry out, and I may eventually have no other option than to buy the least worst bike the market has to offer at that point.

Lol, that boat sailed long ago...

Hmm.. think which way your brake calipers would go if the securing bolt came undone. They are not pushing back against the fork crown to slow you down.

Braking slows you down, so brake force is obviously pushing backwards.

But it's not from the calipers pushing back at the fork crown.

Yes it is. Forces between the pads and rim are transmitted to the bike and rider via the fork crown in a rim brake system. In a disc brake system, the same force (remember that breaking force is limited by tyre traction so the magnitude of breaking force is very similar) is transmitted much closer to the axle. The forks need to be much stronger in a disc brake system because the bending moment from breaking is far higher in a disc brake system due to the much larger distance between forces.