Nearly 10,000 cyclists in Netherlands fined after mobile phone ban – in four months

hirsute wrote:

Thanks, so it's the left paw hand then.

I think they use the same side paw as the side that they're pulling into, so it'd mostly be the right paw in Denmark. (I didn't see any squirrels over there, but there seemed to be a lot of dogs which might explain why. Can't recall seeing any cats either.)

hawkinspeter wrote:

hirsute wrote:

Thanks, so it's the left paw hand then.

I think they use the same side paw as the side that they're pulling into, so it'd mostly be the right paw in Denmark. (I didn't see any squirrels over there, but there seemed to be a lot of dogs which might explain why. Can't recall seeing any cats either.)

You hold up your left hand because you'll be towards the right hand side of the lane (near the pavement) when stopping. Not everyone does it though, especially when you're going from one red light to another so more or less coast at walking pace to the stop.

fixedwhip wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

hirsute wrote:

Thanks, so it's the left paw hand then.

I think they use the same side paw as the side that they're pulling into, so it'd mostly be the right paw in Denmark. (I didn't see any squirrels over there, but there seemed to be a lot of dogs which might explain why. Can't recall seeing any cats either.)

You hold up your left hand because you'll be towards the right hand side of the lane (near the pavement) when stopping. Not everyone does it though, especially when you're going from one red light to another so more or less coast at walking pace to the stop.

Oops - looks like I was doing it wrong then. I also struggled a bit with the reverse-pedal rear brakes on those bikes.

Rich_cb wrote:

I spend a reasonable amount of time in Amsterdam.

Is this where you extensively research helmets? Stay safe!

hawkinspeter wrote:

... Over there, there's almost a continuous line of cyclists going at more or less the same speed, so they probably don't need to be paying lots of attention - they just pootle along to where they want to go.

Just like my drive to work, especially on the motorway

hawkinspeter wrote:

Haven't been to Amsterdam for a while, but I recently visited Copenhagen. I would esitmate that half of the cyclists were using a phone whilst cycling and they didn't seem to consider it dangerous. Over there, there's almost a continuous line of cyclists going at more or less the same speed, so they probably don't need to be paying lots of attention - they just pootle along to where they want to go.

I live in Copenhagen and cycle here every day, and can tell you that it certainly is dangerous. People pay far too little attention to what they're doing, which is particularly irresponsible in larger crowds.
Also the assumption that, because they're all going at the same speed, it is safe to not pay attention to what they're doing, is beyond stupid. Obviously you're going to be biased and think that people on bikes can do no wrong, but think for a second if that logic is applicable to any other vehicle...

fixedwhip wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

Haven't been to Amsterdam for a while, but I recently visited Copenhagen. I would esitmate that half of the cyclists were using a phone whilst cycling and they didn't seem to consider it dangerous. Over there, there's almost a continuous line of cyclists going at more or less the same speed, so they probably don't need to be paying lots of attention - they just pootle along to where they want to go.

I live in Copenhagen and cycle here every day, and can tell you that it certainly is dangerous. People pay far too little attention to what they're doing, which is particularly irresponsible in larger crowds. Also the assumption that, because they're all going at the same speed, it is safe to not pay attention to what they're doing, is beyond stupid. Obviously you're going to be biased and think that people on bikes can do no wrong, but think for a second if that logic is applicable to any other vehicle...

My initial thought was that it looked dangerous, but I assumed that the natives knew what they were doing. I didn't see any crashes or close-calls, but I was only there for a week (lovely city by the way) so it'd be interesting to see the actual KSIs.

hawkinspeter wrote:

My initial thought was that it looked dangerous, but I assumed that the natives knew what they were doing. I didn't see any crashes or close-calls

First time I saw someone using their phone while driving it looked dangerous, but I assumed that someone with a driving licence knew what they were doing. I've genuinely never seen a car crash.

fixedwhip wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

My initial thought was that it looked dangerous, but I assumed that the natives knew what they were doing. I didn't see any crashes or close-calls

First time I saw someone using their phone while driving it looked dangerous, but I assumed that someone with a driving licence knew what they were doing. I've genuinely never seen a car crash.

The motorised traffic in Copenhagen was greatly diminished (compared to e.g. Bristol) and seemed quite calm and relaxed, though when my wife and I hired some bikes, I did get a van turning right across me without indicating (luckily we predicted it and hung back a bit).

Personally, I don't think people are capable of using a mobile phone and paying sufficient attention to their surroundings, so it very much depends on what they are doing as to whether they are dangerous. e.g. people walking along and using phones may possibly bump into other people, cyclists using phones might crash or cause other cyclists to crash and motorists are likely to injure/kill someone if they're using their phones.

In your opinion, do you get the "aggressive" drivers over there? The ones that burn rubber overtaking someone that's going too slow, or speed up in order to get across junctions as lights turn red?

hawkinspeter wrote:

In your opinion, do you get the "aggressive" drivers over there? The ones that burn rubber overtaking someone that's going too slow, or speed up in order to get across junctions as lights turn red?

There are definitely some bad drivers, but it doesn't matter too much since I'm completely separate from them in the bike lane. You can tell that someone is going to drive like a tool (revving hard, driving way too fast, sometimes even running red lights) based on the fact they're driving a white Mercedes/Audi/BMW with blacked out windows, but everyone else is fine. And you only see that kind of driver in certain parts of the city anyway.

I'd say the main thing that makes it better here is how it's very obvious who has priority, and the rules are generally always followed. Though recently, I'm sure entirely coincidentally with the introduction of the dockless electric scooters, more people have been going through red lights on their bikes or going the wrong direction in the bike lane.

For example, if you look at the typical crossroads, rather than having 4 phases or something like in the UK, there are just two. Cars, pedestrians, and bikes all go at the same time in the same direction. Pedestrians have right of way, then bikes, then cars. If you want to turn left (remember we're on the opposite side of the road) you need to go straight, stop at the opposite side of the junction, turn on the spot, wait for the lights that go perpendicular, then go in that direction. At no point do you ever come into contact with other traffic - it's great! From my experience, the source of all of the problems experienced by people on bikes in the UK is not because of other people but just because of the lack of systems. And that will never happen in the UK, unless someone finds a way to magically make roads 5 metres wider. Roads in Copenhagen do not sacrifice room for cars in order to make room for bikes, which is what the UK is trying to do. All that does is make someone else's day harder, and make them unhappy.

fixedwhip wrote:

I'd say the main thing that makes it better here is how it's very obvious who has priority, and the rules are generally always followed. Though recently, I'm sure entirely coincidentally with the introduction of the dockless electric scooters, more people have been going through red lights on their bikes or going the wrong direction in the bike lane. For example, if you look at the typical crossroads, rather than having 4 phases or something like in the UK, there are just two. Cars, pedestrians, and bikes all go at the same time in the same direction. Pedestrians have right of way, then bikes, then cars. If you want to turn left (remember we're on the opposite side of the road) you need to go straight, stop at the opposite side of the junction, turn on the spot, wait for the lights that go perpendicular, then go in that direction. At no point do you ever come into contact with other traffic - it's great! From my experience, the source of all of the problems experienced by people on bikes in the UK is not because of other people but just because of the lack of systems. And that will never happen in the UK, unless someone finds a way to magically make roads 5 metres wider. Roads in Copenhagen do not sacrifice room for cars in order to make room for bikes, which is what the UK is trying to do. All that does is make someone else's day harder, and make them unhappy.

Yeah, it took me a while to get my head round the different junction rules. At first it was puzzling why everyone was obeying the red lights, even the pedestrians, but after a couple of days, you realise that a red light means that someone is just about to be crossing your path. It was strange as a pedestrian to be crossing the road and then getting stranded on the middle island if the lights changed whilst crossing.

fixedwhip wrote:

For example, if you look at the typical crossroads, rather than having 4 phases or something like in the UK, there are just two. Cars, pedestrians, and bikes all go at the same time in the same direction. Pedestrians have right of way, then bikes, then cars.

That's typical of various (most?) "mainland"  countries.

Quote:

If you want to turn left (remember we're on the opposite side of the road) you need to go straight, stop at the opposite side of the junction, turn on the spot, wait for the lights that go perpendicular, then go in that direction.

But that's not! This particular maneouvre presumably applies only to bikes? Motor traffic presumably turns left analagously to turning right in the UK (but obviously giving way to the pedestrians and cyclists crossing the road it's turning into) or is there a different system? 

Bmblbzzz wrote:

fixedwhip wrote:

For example, if you look at the typical crossroads, rather than having 4 phases or something like in the UK, there are just two. Cars, pedestrians, and bikes all go at the same time in the same direction. Pedestrians have right of way, then bikes, then cars.

That's typical of various (most?) "mainland"  countries.

Quote:

If you want to turn left (remember we're on the opposite side of the road) you need to go straight, stop at the opposite side of the junction, turn on the spot, wait for the lights that go perpendicular, then go in that direction.

But that's not! This particular maneouvre presumably applies only to bikes? Motor traffic turns left analagously to turning right in UK (but giving way to pedestrians and bikes crossing the  road it's turning into), or is there a different system?

I think that's just for bikes. There's also a "new" hand-signal - hold your hand up if you're slowing down/stopping.

hawkinspeter wrote:

I think that's just for bikes. There's also a "new" hand-signal - hold your hand up if you're slowing down/stopping.

I think I need an image to help me with that one.

hirsute wrote:

hawkinspeter wrote:

I think that's just for bikes. There's also a "new" hand-signal - hold your hand up if you're slowing down/stopping.

I think I need an image to help me with that one.

Something like this though possibly with a bent elbow:

Having visited Amsterdam in the summer I can assue you the concept we have of cyclists "pootling" is totally inaccurate. Some pootle along but a lot absolutely fly around. Sure most are on older city style bikes, but they still move. On the sections with the cycle lane on the pavement area they pass at speed, with a few cm to spare, and should you dare to have drifted 1mm over the worn out line dividing the sections (as large numbers of bikes ride the line) they will yell at you loudly.
At pedestrian crossings, they stop well after their stop line, and on several occasions I was "forced" (ok no one had to twist my arm hard) to either adjust the angle of their front wheel with a firmly placed foot, or in a couple of cases where they were blocking the crossing/footpath totally, I physically pushed their handlebars (and them) back across their stop line... 

Move away from the major commuter routes towards the old town, and people move at a gentler pace, but there the cycle lanes are few and far between.

hawkinspeter wrote:

Haven't been to Amsterdam for a while, but I recently visited Copenhagen. I would esitmate that half of the cyclists were using a phone whilst cycling and they didn't seem to consider it dangerous. Over there, there's almost a continuous line of cyclists going at more or less the same speed, so they probably don't need to be paying lots of attention - they just pootle along to where they want to go.

Expatpat wrote:

On the face of it this might seem unfair targeting of cyclists. However, here in the Netherlands cyclists and cars are generally separated by an excellent and safe cycle path network, and the hazard from dozy cyclists using mobile phones is a real issue to other cyclists and pedestrians.

Given the propensity of the average Dutch politie to fine everyone for anything, I imagine that the number of car drivers fined for mobile phone use is proportionately similar.

My own technique when racing up behind one of this miscreants on my stealth cycle is to scream like a banshee just at the point I reach them, which often results in a serious wobble and a dropped iphone.

 

So you've decided to make yourself judge, jury and executioner just like many drivers on the road who aggressively pass cyclists, beeping their horns etc. Great work! Moron!

Htc wrote:

Expatpat wrote:

On the face of it this might seem unfair targeting of cyclists. However, here in the Netherlands cyclists and cars are generally separated by an excellent and safe cycle path network, and the hazard from dozy cyclists using mobile phones is a real issue to other cyclists and pedestrians.

Given the propensity of the average Dutch politie to fine everyone for anything, I imagine that the number of car drivers fined for mobile phone use is proportionately similar.

My own technique when racing up behind one of this miscreants on my stealth cycle is to scream like a banshee just at the point I reach them, which often results in a serious wobble and a dropped iphone.

 

 

So you've decided to make yourself judge, jury and executioner just like many drivers on the road who aggressively pass cyclists, beeping their horns etc. Great work! Moron!

What a strange comment from someone who clearly needs anger management (send me a time date and place and I'll happily come and do that for you)