Norwich MP urges road users to observe 'chain of respect' following deaths of two cyclists in city

And sadly BBC Radio Norfolk is using it to back family calls for a helmet law.

Oh Right Chloe. So drivers are running around deliberately killing cyclists from lack of respect? When are people going to understand that unprotected humans actually mingling with heavy moving essential machinery just ain't a good thing to do? Fact is that we have now moved on from the turn of the 20th Century when cars were very few, much slower and generally operated by experts. Now there are over 30 million, and faster too and more importantly an integral part of our economy and no longer a luxury as it was then.

Sorry. Classic illogical cycle clip female brain at work here. Would MPs normally set up such a scenario? If we were starting now, and looking at the problem in today's eyes, especially with the elf'n safety based demands, would we set it up like this? Could a private company suddenly get away with such dangers for its workers? Let's get real people!

Ok give me me hat and coat, I'm off.

"But the problem with stressing this point is that it tends to shift responsibility onto the victim"

exactly - the vehicles that come closest and fast i find i haven't heard coming because of wind noise and their approach speed - of course i could fit a mirror and see them coming but what good would this be? (yes i do ride far enough ot to pull in a bit) - the answer is change driver behaviour, reminding cyclists (and pedestrians) that being distracted can kill you is useful but doesn't fix the attitude problem of "i'm coming thru anyway"

OoP

Spot on!

Personally I don't cycle with headphones either, because I value the additonal sensory input.

But the problem with stressing this point is that it tends to shift responsibility onto the victim. At its simplest the question is this: should deaf people be allowed to cycle on the roads? If so, which I imagine we all agree they should, then regulation and enforcement should aim to make it safe to cycle on the roads when deaf. A cyclist shouldn't have to rely on a screech of tyres to warn them and a car driver shouldn't assume "I can tear round this blind corner as I beeped first".

Make the roads safe for deaf child cyclists, and we'll all benefit.

I can't hear very much behind me at 25mph on a bicycle with the wind whistling past my ears and most drivers don't seem to realise this. Like a Spitfire pilot I'm always visually checking my 6. Not sure about AV Lowe's comments on 'top drivers keeping a window open' Having a car window open usually denotes a smoker.

The irony is that the ones using sound the most tend to use nothing else. I meet a pedestrian almost every time I'm out on the bike who crosses the road in front of my wheel using their ears alone as a guide to traffic conditions. : |

Motorcyclists wear ear-buds to damp out high-frequency wind-noise primarily. Lower-frequency noise, like major components of engine noise, still can get through mostly.

That said, things happen so quickly on a motorcycle on the road, and the spatial resolution from sound is so limited, that your ears are far far less useful on a motorcycle than on a bicycle. If you want to stay alive on the road on a motorcycle, you really really must use your eyes and always give yourself enough time to do so.

On a bicycle, I've found sound and ears are a quite useful safety aid. You get some time to hear vehicles approaching from behind.

The pivotal word in this for me is "respect" - sadly this is an aspect of modern life that IMHO is sadly diminishing from all facets of life not just road use.

@OR,

A genuine question, not an attempt to restart the earphone/no earphone debate.

Many motorcyclists wear ear buds to reduce the noise while riding, does that not contribute to a similar problem to cyclists wearing earphones?

And cars playing loud music?

I reckon if we are relying on our ears to notify us that a car is about to plough into us from behind then we are in an overly dangerous environment and that should be addressed rather than trusting our lug holes.

Just on that last point AV - I do have my concerns about noise regulations on new vehicles. Engine noise restrictions mean that newer vehicles are far quieter than before, even more so for hybrids and electric cars. In Japan there is a study on accidents involving pedestrians and hybrid cars - the Toyota Prius in particular probably as it is the most common. The team thatproduced the Japanese report suggested that electric cars or hybrids should have noise generators. I know from my experience as a motorcycle rider that drivers do respond to the sound of an engine - there is a saying amongst bikers that loud pipes save lives and my own experience of having a sportsbike with a racing exhaust backs this up. On at least one occasion this saved me from a trip to casualty when a dozy Peugeot driver suddenly realised I was in the process of an overtake that she hadn't noticed because she hadn't looked.

I do see lots of cyclsits wearing earphones while riding and you can't convince me that it's safe. We've had debates about that in here before.

I hope all road users are encouraged to make sure their safety equipment is fully serviceable and used every time they go out to use the road, and remember its limitations.

Check 1) brain,functioning and focussed on the task in hand, not on a phone call, nor running at reduced capacity through tiredness or substances that change its normal performance.

Check 2) eyes - operating to their full capacity to look - especially looking at the eyes of other road users. If eye function is being limited make sure appropriate measures are taken to compensate for this in how you interact with other road users. Normally eyes give you 120 degrees of 2-way communication BUT as your speed rises above 'running speed'(c.30Kph) the field of focus narrows and you need road markings, and other aids to assist your decreasing near field vision.

3) ears the 360 degree back-up system for sight, what you don't see you can often hear and so few road users actually make the correct use of an 'audible warning of approach' yes that means a horn, a bell, or a voice, but used before the crash becomes inevitable. A toot of a horn and a response of raising an arm are the safety check that rail workers use instinctively, to left each other know they are aware of a hazard and taking appropriate action. maybe we should be driving, cycling and walking with a similar protocol.

I'm writing this after reading the notice for a report on a fatal crash between a cyclist and a train in Nottinghamshire. It is likely to be the third such report by RAIB in around 5 years, and with a 100% recording of the fact that every cyclist was riding with an ipod - or equivalent and failed to respond to the rather inescapable noise of an approaching train or tram, and the bells and horns sounding when the cyclist was clearly not looking at them, and continuing to ride out into the position of danger.

Not that drivers can point the finger. Almost without fail all top rated drivers will drive with a window open in all weathers. That added alert has helped me avoid a crash more than once, hearing the tyre or engine noise of that other car or motorbike which just happens to be sitting right in the one place the mirrors cannot show, or the feint sound of a bell or shout in city traffic.

So remember to make the only contact you make with any other road user, eye contact, and use that to the full.

Absolutely shocked at these two incidents, it is a pretty rare thing in Norwich as it should be in all areas. Norfolk and Norwich is retry good but this does highlight the fact that the council don't actually increase their development along with the popularity of leisure activities like cycling.

They are also not mentioning their lack of inclusion for cyclists with the development of the Northern Distributor Road which crosses many smaller roads, closes some and even redevelops a major access road closing a main cycle path on the quiet before the plans go to government to be passed as the stipulation was for consideration to all users highlighting cycling as a main area for consultation. My cycle lane to the Broadland Business park has now disappeared from the published cycle routes although it physically exists as it always has, poorly maintained and signposted but quicker and safer than taking to the major dual carriageway or the city roads.

Let's hope this lack of foresight doesn't lead to tragic news like this.