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Well I know where I stand on this. I agree with the surgeon. But I'll just leave this here and see what everyone else says.

 

Now I've lit the blue touch paper, I'll stand well back!

 

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/07/15/helmets-do-nothing-says-british-s...

42 comments

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Sriracha [96 posts] 4 weeks ago
2 likes

Just read the comments already there in the linked article. Well reasoned points for and against, with more balance and respect than you're likely to find over here.

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hawkinspeter [3847 posts] 4 weeks ago
3 likes

Well I never!

 

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skwarczek [19 posts] 4 weeks ago
0 likes

Have to add this. One of my local club riders doing the Tenby Long course ride.

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cycling-bike-helmet-safety...

 

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hawkinspeter [3847 posts] 4 weeks ago
7 likes
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BehindTheBikesheds [3322 posts] 4 weeks ago
3 likes

When we have stab vests and helmets for peds and anti rape devices for women then that would be parity to cycle helmet wearing for cyclists, in fact given what we know in terms of risk, these two groups need these garments massively more than people on bikes need their PPE.

The anti vaccine comment in the first link is oh so typical of an ignorant helmet wearer, people promoting helmets and those pumping out 'research' AKA meta-analysis that is clearly flawed, uses data/injuries  that deliberately distorts things and then presents it in a flawed way and flies in the face of the researchers own protocols (yes that's you Jake Olivier) are dangerous people.

They literally are causing more deaths and injuries, they are causing removing of freedoms, more victim blaming, more focus on the vulnerable to protect themselves and so on.

Just fuck off already and bother to look at the data not just in cycling but all sports that use so called PPE that proves without a doubt that helmets/head protection is a massive failure!

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joeegg [109 posts] 4 weeks ago
1 like

Looking at the question"do helmets save lives",is it a question that really has an answer.You'll never be able to prove conclusively that a seatbelt or airbag actually saved someone's life.

 

So you get into the realms of possibility,and that is generally down to peoples personal interpretations.

If the question was "can helmets prevent non life threatening injuries" then I'd say yes.

It would be great to live in a utopia of safe and careful vehicle drivers,but we don't,and it won't be happening soon. In view of that I will continue to wear a helmet but won't denegrate people who decide not to.

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Boatsie [354 posts] 4 weeks ago
1 like

Helmet saved my friends life.
Downhill, steep.
A stoned dude was sitting quietly at a switchback. My mate was KO. He'd lost control and headbutted a tree. The foam sandwich helmet was in 3 pieces. A half hour drive to hospital resulted in a question of why we had stopped after 45 seconds although we had been chatting a half hour drive.

Hearing was impeccable.. Marvelous. In a noisy emergency room filled with speakers my mate had locked on a girl with her boyfriend,
girl whispering to a nurse 10 metres away wanting an afterwards pill because she was frightened of oven duties.
That helmet saved him.. He's a nerd.
Ever hit black ice, oil loss, tram tracks, rock wedge lodged in mud guard, tyre blow out, sudden change of torque system, wet slippery brake pads, loose bolt, ...an unseen parked car?
Helmets are really useful on this topographic bike paths, road and/or dirt.
Shaved legs are funny.. We used to pay out tree stump man but he's correct.. If he slides out he'll increase probably of graze rather than tear.

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Nat Jas Moe [192 posts] 4 weeks ago
0 likes

I can say the answer is yes. Having been involved in a RTA recently where I was doing about 15-20 mph and having hit my head on said car, you only need to see the damage to the helmet and the damage to other parts of me to realise that the helmet saved my head significant damage. Would that have been loss of life, hard to say but the damage would have been life changing had I not been wearing one.

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Organon [294 posts] 4 weeks ago
0 likes

A British surgeon being quoted on an American website. I'd say that sounds a bit anecdotal to me.

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Xenophon2 [69 posts] 4 weeks ago
6 likes

Give it a rest, let those who don't believe in helmets take their chances without them, I'll take mine wearing one.  Live and let live, eh?

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brooksby [4725 posts] 4 weeks ago
9 likes
Xenophon2 wrote:

Give it a rest, let those who don't believe in helmets take their chances without them, I'll take mine wearing one.  Live and let live, eh?

Lots of cyclists wearing a helmet are only wearing it because they grew sick and tired of being nagged about it by a Significant Other Who Doesn't Ride A Bike.

Allegedly.

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RafatheRed [27 posts] 4 weeks ago
1 like

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet,  My story is i always told my kids to wear a helmet,they would moan,they would whine. Then one day i have to go into work for a meeting on my day off. I jump on my bike (BMX) and off i cycle,then whoops i've forgotton to put my helmet on. well i think to myself i'll be ok.i ride slower,miss the drains and pot holes,no jumping off the kerbs! So i get to a staggered crossroads and im waiting at the junction. Then bang! a car on the opposite junction hit me because he cut over to my side of the road. i was lucky,the back of my head did not hit the road,Saved by the ruck sack on had on my back. The one time i never wore my helmet!

 

 

 

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Welsh boy [668 posts] 4 weeks ago
6 likes
RafatheRed wrote:

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet,  My story is i always told my kids to wear a helmet,they would moan,they would whine. Then one day i have to go into work for a meeting on my day off. I jump on my bike (BMX) and off i cycle,then whoops i've forgotton to put my helmet on. well i think to myself i'll be ok.i ride slower,miss the drains and pot holes,no jumping off the kerbs! So i get to a staggered crossroads and im waiting at the junction. Then bang! a car on the opposite junction hit me because he cut over to my side of the road. i was lucky,the back of my head did not hit the road,Saved by the ruck sack on had on my back. The one time i never wore my helmet!

So, what yor are saying there is that there is no need to wear a helmet, a ruck sack is good enough to save you if you are hit by a car.  If I were you I wouldn't use that little story to convince your kids that they should wear a helmet.

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Boatsie [354 posts] 3 weeks ago
1 like
RafatheRed wrote:

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet,  My story is i always told my kids to wear a helmet,they would moan,they would whine. Then one day i have to go into work for a meeting on my day off. I jump on my bike (BMX) and off i cycle,then whoops i've forgotton to put my helmet on. well i think to myself i'll be ok.i ride slower,miss the drains and pot holes,no jumping off the kerbs! So i get to a staggered crossroads and im waiting at the junction. Then bang! a car on the opposite junction hit me because he cut over to my side of the road. i was lucky,the back of my head did not hit the road,Saved by the ruck sack on had on my back. The one time i never wore my helmet!

 

 

 

 1
I like it. Almost at wear a helmet if your a pedestrian. Nice 1.
My miss take, misread.. Nice 1 though
 1

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FluffyKittenofT... [2657 posts] 3 weeks ago
6 likes
RafatheRed wrote:

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet, 

 

Makes it tricky to wash your hair, though.  Or are you prepared to take the risk of taking it off for that?

 

 

Sounds as if in your anecdote the problem was the presence of the car and a crap driver, not the absence of a helmet.  Maybe that's the more important issue, as you anecdote demonstrates?

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Podc [147 posts] 3 weeks ago
5 likes
RafatheRed wrote:

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet,  My story is i always told my kids to wear a helmet,they would moan,they would whine. Then one day i have to go into work for a meeting on my day off. I jump on my bike (BMX) and off i cycle,then whoops i've forgotton to put my helmet on. well i think to myself i'll be ok.i ride slower,miss the drains and pot holes,no jumping off the kerbs! So i get to a staggered crossroads and im waiting at the junction. Then bang! a car on the opposite junction hit me because he cut over to my side of the road. i was lucky,the back of my head did not hit the road,Saved by the ruck sack on had on my back. The one time i never wore my helmet!

 

Great anecdote that says more about risk compensation than helmet safety.

 

When I rode motorbikes I called my leathers my 'suit of invincibility'. I definitely rode differently when I wasn't wearing them!

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hirsute [973 posts] 3 weeks ago
3 likes
RafatheRed wrote:

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet,  My story is i always told my kids to wear a helmet,they would moan,they would whine. Then one day i have to go into work for a meeting on my day off. I jump on my bike (BMX) and off i cycle,then whoops i've forgotton to put my helmet on. well i think to myself i'll be ok.i ride slower,miss the drains and pot holes,no jumping off the kerbs! So i get to a staggered crossroads and im waiting at the junction. Then bang! a car on the opposite junction hit me because he cut over to my side of the road. i was lucky,the back of my head did not hit the road,Saved by the ruck sack on had on my back. The one time i never wore my helmet!

I take from that - your risk appetite increases with safety equipment, the rucsac made a  difference, there are crap drivers about. Did you consider you would have hit your head with a helmet on as your head would have been bigger?

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BehindTheBikesheds [3322 posts] 3 weeks ago
5 likes
Xenophon2 wrote:

Give it a rest, let those who don't believe in helmets take their chances without them, I'll take mine wearing one.  Live and let live, eh?

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest, it's every single day that non wearers are been ostracised, refused entry to cycling events, refused to be allowed to ride in a cycling club so no inclusivity, victim blamed, shouted at and abused. it's added up to psuedo mandation in many quarters including increasingly and worryingly compulsion to wear for cycling to school, motions put forward in parliament every now and again and even police action to push helmet wearing.

And what has that done in this country (and every other country and sport)? Since 2005 which is when helmet wearing started to increase significantly in the UK post UCI rules Because BC had to change also), injuries have not improved, deaths are pretty much exactly where they were. Increases in cycling, well no there isn't (just a small incremental mileage increase and the injury rate compared to pedestrians has continued to get wider, child cycling hasn't increased.

All the while more children die solely of head injuries in motorvehicles than total number of children riding a bike, hundreds of thousands more from the general population have hospital stays due to serious head injuries that dwarf the number that are from people on bikes.

If the largest number of serious head injuries occur due to criminal activity (we know this for a fact), then putting the onus to protect -  even when we know that that protection is nowhere near enough to prevent the serious injury, is simply heinous and in no other quarter in society do we do this, nor come close to the victim blaming for those not 'armouring' up. Nowhere else does society chide and exclude due to people not wearing a garment that is factually misrepresented and that this causes more harm in the grand scheme of things than it could ever resolve.

I presume you understand the social implications, the human rights breaching implications on top of the bending of the law due to the effects of 'force majeure' with regards to cycle helmets.

The group that needs to give it a rest is the one wearing/promoting helmets, only that group forces others to bend to their will or be attacked in various forms including discriminatory action in law and removing freedoms others experience.

Insidious doesn't even cover it!

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Rich_cb [969 posts] 3 weeks ago
2 likes
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest, it's every single day that non wearers are been ostracised, refused entry to cycling events, refused to be allowed to ride in a cycling club so no inclusivity, victim blamed, shouted at and abused. it's added up to psuedo mandation in many quarters including increasingly and worryingly compulsion to wear for cycling to school, motions put forward in parliament every now and again and even police action to push helmet wearing.

And what has that done in this country (and every other country and sport)? Since 2005 which is when helmet wearing started to increase significantly in the UK post UCI rules Because BC had to change also), injuries have not improved, deaths are pretty much exactly where they were. Increases in cycling, well no there isn't (just a small incremental mileage increase and the injury rate compared to pedestrians has continued to get wider, child cycling hasn't increased.

All the while more children die solely of head injuries in motorvehicles than total number of children riding a bike, hundreds of thousands more from the general population have hospital stays due to serious head injuries that dwarf the number that are from people on bikes.

If the largest number of serious head injuries occur due to criminal activity (we know this for a fact), then putting the onus to protect -  even when we know that that protection is nowhere near enough to prevent the serious injury, is simply heinous and in no other quarter in society do we do this, nor come close to the victim blaming for those not 'armouring' up. Nowhere else does society chide and exclude due to people not wearing a garment that is factually misrepresented and that this causes more harm in the grand scheme of things than it could ever resolve.

I presume you understand the social implications, the human rights breaching implications on top of the bending of the law due to the effects of 'force majeure' with regards to cycle helmets.

The group that needs to give it a rest is the one wearing/promoting helmets, only that group forces others to bend to their will or be attacked in various forms including discriminatory action in law and removing freedoms others experience.

Insidious doesn't even cover it!

This is a lie.

UK Helmet wearing increased rapidly from 1994.

Cyclist KSIs have fallen significantly since 1994.

AFAIK there is no good data for UK helmet wearing rates from 2005-present.

Why do the most vocal anti helmet posters have such difficulty posting the truth?

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Griff500 [410 posts] 3 weeks ago
5 likes
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest.......

Seriously???  You are very keen on evidence and stats, so just take a look at the various helmet threads and see who's name crops up most.  

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Rapha Nadal [1116 posts] 3 weeks ago
6 likes
Griff500 wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest.......

Seriously???  You are very keen on evidence and stats, so just take a look at the various helmet threads and see who's name crops up most.  

He just enjoys screaming into the void and banging that oh so tired drum whenever his carer let's him use the laptop.

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FluffyKittenofT... [2657 posts] 3 weeks ago
3 likes
Griff500 wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest.......

Seriously???  You are very keen on evidence and stats, so just take a look at the various helmet threads and see who's name crops up most.  

 

Because threads on here are the only place in the world that helmets are promoted?

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Organon [294 posts] 3 weeks ago
6 likes
Rapha Nadal wrote:
Griff500 wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest.......

Seriously???  You are very keen on evidence and stats, so just take a look at the various helmet threads and see who's name crops up most.  

He just enjoys screaming into the void and banging that oh so tired drum whenever his carer let's him use the laptop.

It does seem that when ever this debate comes up again, the same few people are shouting down others, comparing helmet advocacy with compulsion, dismissing any personal experience as acecdotal. How many people need to tell you that a helmet saved them from injury or reduced their injury in a situation that was not of their own making to suggest there might be a link? Strange we do not hear from those that went without helmet and hit their heads. The stats quoted always seem to be a bit 'off' and aimed at proving points not related to hitting you head off metal or concrete. To me they sound like conspiracy nuts who think they have cornered to the board. One day reality is going to hit them, or a Ford Fiesta.

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BehindTheBikesheds [3322 posts] 3 weeks ago
3 likes

Helmet advocacy by people/organisations with power and influence is essentially mandation by the back door.

Little point repeating what's already been said because it's clear that the pro helmet lot are blind, ignorant and don't have the capacity to grasp what's actually going on nor the outcomes from helmet wearing.

Only one group can't leave things as they were and will continue to badger and exclude constantly.

All those pro racers must have been doing it all wrong for over a century and yet safer than the modern pro wearing helmets, you really couldn't make it up unlike some of the posters here who try to make out stuff as facts. Laughable if it weren't so serious as to the negative effects on society as a whole.

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Rick_Rude [290 posts] 3 weeks ago
11 likes

I got pre-empitively victim blamed  for not wearing a helmet today by another cyclist. 

We (me, wife and child) were out on a popular cycle path probably averaging literally about 8-10 mph as my lad is a small 8 and still only on a MTB with 20" wheels. He had a helmet, me and the wife didn't as I really didn't think doing 10mph on a car free path warranted it as I mostly just arsing about trying to pull wheelies and the like. 

Anyway we are going along (slowly) keeping to the left and a pair of walkers are coming the opposite direction walking on their left. Behind them a fast moving older cyclist and his wife are approaching. 

We maintained our speed as the approaching cyclists were on the walkers' side and they should have slowed if needed. They didn't and overtook the walkers into our path and we had to stop to avoid his idiot overtake. He then shouts at me that I should be wearing a helmet!! Yeah just in case I hit by cunts like him overtaking when he should have slowed for 2s. 

Stupid old cock. If you wouldn't do it in your car don't do it on your bike. 

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Rich_cb [969 posts] 3 weeks ago
2 likes
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

Helmet advocacy by people/organisations with power and influence is essentially mandation by the back door.

Little point repeating what's already been said because it's clear that the pro helmet lot are blind, ignorant and don't have the capacity to grasp what's actually going on nor the outcomes from helmet wearing.

Only one group can't leave things as they were and will continue to badger and exclude constantly.

All those pro racers must have been doing it all wrong for over a century and yet safer than the modern pro wearing helmets, you really couldn't make it up unlike some of the posters here who try to make out stuff as facts. Laughable if it weren't so serious as to the negative effects on society as a whole.

Do you have a link to those helmet wearing stats from 2005-present you constantly refer to?

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hawkinspeter [3847 posts] 3 weeks ago
5 likes
Organon wrote:
Rapha Nadal wrote:
Griff500 wrote:
BehindTheBikesheds wrote:

The problem is helmet promoters/wearers won't give it a rest.......

Seriously???  You are very keen on evidence and stats, so just take a look at the various helmet threads and see who's name crops up most.  

He just enjoys screaming into the void and banging that oh so tired drum whenever his carer let's him use the laptop.

It does seem that when ever this debate comes up again, the same few people are shouting down others, comparing helmet advocacy with compulsion, dismissing any personal experience as acecdotal. How many people need to tell you that a helmet saved them from injury or reduced their injury in a situation that was not of their own making to suggest there might be a link? Strange we do not hear from those that went without helmet and hit their heads. The stats quoted always seem to be a bit 'off' and aimed at proving points not related to hitting you head off metal or concrete. To me they sound like conspiracy nuts who think they have cornered to the board. One day reality is going to hit them, or a Ford Fiesta.

What bugs me about helmet advocacy is that it seems to concentrate on cyclists as being the only at risk group for accidental head injury.

Cyclists are already an out-group and demonised by the media and the focus on helmet use just seems an awful lot like victim blaming to me. It seems that rather than focus on what actually would make the roads safer, instead there's far too much blaming 'idiot' cyclists that choose to not wear a helmet.

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ConcordeCX [1153 posts] 3 weeks ago
6 likes
hawkinspeter wrote:

What bugs me about helmet advocacy is that it seems to concentrate on cyclists as being the only at risk group for accidental head injury.

Cyclists are already an out-group and demonised by the media and the focus on helmet use just seems an awful lot like victim blaming to me. It seems that rather than focus on what actually would make the roads safer, instead there's far too much blaming 'idiot' cyclists that choose to not wear a helmet.

it's almost as if people were deliberately using a dead cat strategy to distract our attention from something else. But surely nobody could be that cynical...

 

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brooksby [4725 posts] 3 weeks ago
0 likes
FluffyKittenofTindalos wrote:
RafatheRed wrote:

Cant see any reason not to wear a helmet, 

Makes it tricky to wash your hair, though.  Or are you prepared to take the risk of taking it off for that?

Those shower stalls can be dashed slippery, I hear...

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brooksby [4725 posts] 3 weeks ago
1 like
Organon wrote:

It does seem that when ever this debate comes up again, the same few people are shouting down others, comparing helmet advocacy with compulsion, dismissing any personal experience as acecdotal. How many people need to tell you that a helmet saved them from injury or reduced their injury in a situation that was not of their own making to suggest there might be a link? Strange we do not hear from those that went without helmet and hit their heads. The stats quoted always seem to be a bit 'off' and aimed at proving points not related to hitting you head off metal or concrete. To me they sound like conspiracy nuts who think they have cornered to the board. One day reality is going to hit them, or a Ford Fiesta.

Whilst I agree with you that the most vocal people on the 'Helmet Debate' (TM) threads are the same small group (on both sides), I'm honestly not sure that a bike helmet will protect you from being hit by a Ford Fiesta.  Isn't that sort of the whole point of these debates?

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