Rider killed after crash on mountain bike fitted with petrol engine

OldRidgeback wrote:

The police really need to crack down on the use of these, as well as the very common high powered e-bikes and e-scooters. They are involved in a lot of crashes.

I'd still consider that two-wheelers pose more of a threat to themselves than others (there are examples unfortunately of them hitting and hurting others though). I'd prefer police to prioritise the bigger four-wheeled vehicles as they cause a lot more damage, pain and suffering.

Although of course cars dominate KSI stats in pure numbers terms I think that motorcyclists are both the road users most likely to be killed on the roads AND fairly dangerous to others (both by distance travelled).  Now the caveats begin!

First - in data below I'm not sure how they class "illegal electric motorbikes".  Assuming (!) that's in the "motorbike" section... motorcyclists - like cyclists - apparently were most likely to die with "no other vehicle involved".   Obviously there may be the occasional question about that!  "We found them dead by the side of the road" has sometimes been shown to not be an "accident"...

Stats only show "killed", not injured.  That "involved" figure again - not sure how this is "counted" or "coded".  I don't think it's just "directly caused";  it's not clear if a car hits a cyclist and pedestrian killing the former that cycling doesn't get a count for that.

Anyway in PACTS 20 vans were the most dangerous per mile - probably because they're obviously delivering (and in my experience are quite likely to be on the pavement!).   Then HGVs (because if they hit you results are more often fatal) and motorcycles close together.  Note that this has cyclists as more deadly than cars per distance travelled though - hence my question about "involved in"!

Of course the numbers then lead to yet more questions (where is this happening?  Why are collisions happening?  Is it a particular group within this population...?)

https://www.pacts.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/PACTS-What-kills-most-on-the...

I would have thought that illegal electric bikes/ motorbikes would be in the 50cc and under category.

If I've read Figures 5 and 7 correctly, vans are pretty much the safest type of 4 wheeled motor vehicles for us cyclists to be around

A throttle may not conform to the latest regulations, but it's not dangerous.

I beg to differ.  Good throttle control on a motorbike is one of of the "initial gotcha's" novice riders have.  Particularly one of unknown sensitivity and manufacture.

About the only thing I can think that might be worse in this case is if the the throttle wasnt twist grip or bar mounted.  That might explain his inability to stop when crossing the junction.  Its also not usual for badly mounted throttle cables to be non-linear or sticky in their responses.

Yep, that is exactly what happened to Simon Cowell when he tried out the over-powered E-(Motor)bike and broke his back. He got on, twisted the throttle and was thrown backwards off it. 

We're not talking a twitchy super-bike here, before the regs were updated, it was fine to ride an e-bike with throttle control. I had one (thumb operated, not twist grip) and it was absolutely fine.

HoarseMann wrote:

We're not talking a twitchy super-bike here, before the regs were updated, it was fine to ride an e-bike with throttle control. I had one (thumb operated, not twist grip) and it was absolutely fine.

Thumb operated is likely to be safer as if you panic you're likely to just remove your thumb from the button. If you panic with a twist grip, you'd likely grip tighter (to stop you falling off the back of the accelerating bike) and also inadvertenly twist it making you go faster. I think twist grips are a bad design in that it's a major contact point, so it shouldn't also act as a control - extra buttons or sliders would be safer for novices.

It might have escaped your notice, but 15.5mph is the *speed at which the assistance stops*.
The bike - even with a fat heavy git like me riding it -is quite capable of going faster than that under human/ gravity.

I'm quite often riding between 18 and 25mph ... but thats under my power and the motor is no longer providing any help.

On a legal e bike, yes. I've been overtaken in bike lanes on a road bike by people doing 30+mph on shonky MTBs. They're not athletes waiting for their Olympic callup, they're on e bikes with throttles, i.e. motorbikes.

It's the lack of peddling that tends to give it away.

I occasionally see one whose rider seemingly gives his kida lift to school and has installed a CHiPs style windscreen for the child (top bar saddle). I really hope the brakes are up to scratch.

ktache wrote:

It's the lack of peddling that tends to give it away.

How do they expect to sell them going at that speed? [Apologies to Morecombe and Wise.]

Morecombe and Wise

The same mistake was made by hospital regulator Monitor 10 years ago

Dogless wrote:

I've been overtaken in bike lanes on a road bike by people doing 30+mph on shonky MTBs.

I've not heard of that make.  Where can I buy one of these Shonky MTBs?

I can sell you one and an unregulated motor kit for a low, low price.

espressodan wrote:

Another opportunity to point out the perverse nature of laws that make such contraptions illegal and yet allow them to be sold. Petrol motor kits for bikes. 40mph+ scooters. Sometimes people need to be saved from themselves.

More than happy to go off topic here for a moment.

Anecdote: on my village fb page, someone had posted that their electric scooter had been stolen from outside the shop. Someone else said they needed to call the police; someone else then asked if the police would do anything, given that the scooter was itself illegal? The op got angry, saying they'd bought it in a shop for a lot of money so how was it illegal?

Of course ignorance of the law is not a defence. I know I'm probably naive but I'm still amazed that when somebody politely points out a simple fact on social media that people won't check that fact (literally a couple of seconds on Google) but double down on their ignorance. The internet had the ability to enlighten peoples thinking, a library of knowledge in your pocket, how did it end up going the other way?

IanMK wrote:

The internet had the ability to enlighten peoples thinking, a library of knowledge in your pocket, how did it end up going the other way?

We seem to be caught in Eternal September so we're constantly exposed to people who are clueless about how to use the internet. To make matters worse, advertisers have taken over the majority of sites and that provides an incentive for websites to amplify the very worst posts and articles as that drives the most engagement.

As far as I know the item itself is not illegal in any way, it is just only allowed to be used on private land.

It is the same as alcohol. You can consume as much as you like but it is illegal to drive if you are over the limit. 

Your first para is right (afaik). Not convinced by your analogy - would a better one be it is legal to buy a (non-road legal) racing car, but only to drive it on private race tracks.

I think they are both equally appropriate.

IC powered cycles, racing cars, road cars and alcohol can all be enjoyed safely and legally, dangerously and still legally or dangerously and illegally.

.

You beat me to it! Yup, totally Darwinian.

.

Your comments are distasteful and crass, his left three children behind
who are now fatherless and in mourning.

Perhaps he messed around with a petrol engine because he wanted to ?
Your reasons are not necessarily everybody else's.

It is perfectly reasonable to sympathise with his bereaved loved ones while at the same time accepting he was clearly an idiot.