DfT rejects Cycling UK call to withdraw 'Hang Back' video

brooksby wrote:

Applecart wrote:

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

Applecart, the DfT film shows EXACTLY HOW TO OVERTAKE A BIKE BADLY.  That's why most of us are up in arms about the film, the cyclist in that example has not done anything wrong.  If they want to make a film about cyclists undertaking lorries, (and have hilarious pianos falling out of the sky etc for more than three quarters of it) that would be a different issue.

I agree with you. The point is however, that in that situation as a cyclist you should hang back if you do not want to be killed. They could perhaps make it clearer, so I'm with you on that.

Erm - so you're saying that every time I get overtaken I should slow down, freewheel or hit the brakes, just in case I haven't been seen and the overtaking vehicle decides to ignore a handful of Highways Code rules and pulls in or turns, squashing me?      Wow, that's going to make my journeys a bit longer...

In the city I can generally keep pace with the traffic and am often faster. However if I see a turn coming up I let the vehicle in front lead, I don't try to undertake. Undertaking is risky as they don't see you.

simonsays wrote:

Bluebug, Bikebot, The point is, if you rely on the highway code or your right of way to protect you from a lorry then you are going to come off pretty badly.

This is a lesson that people need to learn. You are vulnerable on a bike and should be aware of potential dangers. Lorries are killing lots of cyclists, if you are aware of the dangers then this is a way of protecting yourself before other measures come in to help. 

I'm not usually this rude to a fellow cyclists, but please take that egg you're asking me to suck and shove somewhere* that will stop you spouting this shit.

*I'd suggest your arse.

simonsays wrote:

I think this advert will help save lives. If you get caught in this position, beside a lorry and a potential left turn you need to take evasive action or be ready too. If you get squashed you are a victim. If you are aware of the danger and ready to avoid it you have taken control of the situation. This is defensive riding and as a cyclist you need to learn how to do it. Education saves lives, arguing over the semantictics of it seems petty. Forget victim blaming, don't be a victim!

Have you actually watched the film?! Jesus Christ!

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

simonsays wrote:

I think this advert will help save lives. If you get caught in this position, beside a lorry and a potential left turn you need to take evasive action or be ready too. If you get squashed you are a victim. If you are aware of the danger and ready to avoid it you have taken control of the situation. This is defensive riding and as a cyclist you need to learn how to do it. Education saves lives, arguing over the semantictics of it seems petty. Forget victim blaming, don't be a victim!

Have you actually watched the film?! Jesus Christ!

Of course simonsays hasn't. 

He's also not aware of highway code rule 182:

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

And highway code rule 163:

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

...

• give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car

And highway code rules 211-213:

Rule 211

It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.

Rule 212

When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room (see Rules 162 to 167). If they look over their shoulder it could mean that they intend to pull out, turn right or change direction. Give them time and space to do so.

Rule 213

Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as drain covers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room and pay particular attention to any sudden change of direction they may have to make.

(Anyway thanks to simonsays I now have some highway code rules to stick into my complaint. )

Bluebug wrote:

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

simonsays wrote:

I think this advert will help save lives. If you get caught in this position, beside a lorry and a potential left turn you need to take evasive action or be ready too. If you get squashed you are a victim. If you are aware of the danger and ready to avoid it you have taken control of the situation. This is defensive riding and as a cyclist you need to learn how to do it. Education saves lives, arguing over the semantictics of it seems petty. Forget victim blaming, don't be a victim!

Have you actually watched the film?! Jesus Christ!

Of course simonsays hasn't. 

He's also not aware of highway code rule 182:

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

And highway code rule 163:

Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should

...

• give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car

And highway code rules 211-213:

Rule 211

It is often difficult to see motorcyclists and cyclists, especially when they are coming up from behind, coming out of junctions, at roundabouts, overtaking you or filtering through traffic. Always look out for them before you emerge from a junction; they could be approaching faster than you think. When turning right across a line of slow-moving or stationary traffic, look out for cyclists or motorcyclists on the inside of the traffic you are crossing. Be especially careful when turning, and when changing direction or lane. Be sure to check mirrors and blind spots carefully.

Rule 212

When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room (see Rules 162 to 167). If they look over their shoulder it could mean that they intend to pull out, turn right or change direction. Give them time and space to do so.

Rule 213

Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as drain covers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room and pay particular attention to any sudden change of direction they may have to make.

 

(Anyway thanks to simonsays I now have some highway code rules to stick into my complaint. )

 

We know the rules. However, visibility is poor in lorries. As a lorry weighs many tens of tonnes and you are the physical equivalent of a soft beetle being crushed underfoot, doesn't it makes sense to hang back rather than get killed? Or do you want to die just to prove a point so you can have a good f***ing whinge about it? You can always have the highway code read out at your funeral I suppose and "I told you so" chiselled on your gravestone.

Bluebug wrote:

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

simonsays wrote:

I think this advert will help save lives. If you get caught in this position, beside a lorry and a potential left turn you need to take evasive action or be ready too. If you get squashed you are a victim. If you are aware of the danger and ready to avoid it you have taken control of the situation. This is defensive riding and as a cyclist you need to learn how to do it. Education saves lives, arguing over the semantictics of it seems petty. Forget victim blaming, don't be a victim!

Have you actually watched the film?! Jesus Christ!

Of course simonsays hasn't. 

He's also not aware of highway code rule 182:

Use your mirrors and give a left-turn signal well before you turn left. Do not overtake just before you turn left and watch out for traffic coming up on your left before you make the turn, especially if driving a large vehicle. Cyclists, motorcyclists and other road users in particular may be hidden from your view.

And highway code rule 163:

etc etc etc etc...

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that road users should follow the highway code.  I don't think anyone is questioning that the video is bad, and the response to the CyclingUK challenges are poor.  

However, I think what Simonsays is getting across is that being aware of dangerours scenarios may help cyclists anticipate & react to them.  E.g. when the f*****g truck driver does overtake you and left-hook you, the realisation of what is happening may help the rider to take avoiding action.  

When I cycled in Leeds city centre I quickly realised that being in the  right was f*** all use to me if I was dead, and I started cycling with the assumption that if someone could make a stupid and dangerous manouvre, they would.  

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

Applecart wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

bikebot wrote:

Applecart wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

 

Surely its this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLW7PFQ7u-E

inz4ne wrote:

bikebot wrote:

Applecart wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

 

 

Surely its this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLW7PFQ7u-E

 

I was thinking of the one that The Department for Thwarting Paedos (except famous ones) nicked off the prodigy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3FnCiRpdQ4

davel wrote:

 

I was thinking of the one that The Department for Thwarting Paedos (except famous ones) nicked off the prodigy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3FnCiRpdQ4

Success rate, not so good.

bikebot wrote:

Applecart wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

Yes, I agree that's really effective and we need something similar now for cyclists to make drivers aware of visibility issues. However, cyclists should not be encouraged to undertake at junctions - that is the central message here, to hang back if there's a chance the vehicle next to you could turn. I do this myself in town, naturally as I don't want to die. Touch wood, I'm still here.

L Willo wrote:

bikebot wrote:

L Willo wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

.

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

 

Yes, I agree that's really effective and we need something similar now for cyclists to make drivers aware of visibility issues. However, cyclists should not be encouraged to undertake at junctions - that is the central message here, to hang back if there's a chance the vehicle next to you could turn. I do this myself in town, naturally as I don't want to die. Touch wood, I'm still here.

Yes, we do need a similar video to make drivers aware of visibility issues. That's the problem with this "Hang Back" video - it doesn't instruct drivers at all. It also doesn't really inform cyclists in any sensible fashion due to a bad example. They could have shown a cyclist undertaking in a dangerous fashion with the driver behaving normally - instead they show a cyclist riding "correctly" and a lorry doing a really dangerous left-turn.

The video is really poor and a huge missed opportunity. Just contrast it with the "Think Once, Think Twice, Think Bike!" example above. I really don't the DfT are doing their best to help cyclists at all.

Applecart wrote:

bikebot wrote:

Applecart wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

 

Yes, I agree that's really effective and we need something similar now for cyclists to make drivers aware of visibility issues. However, cyclists should not be encouraged to undertake at junctions - that is the central message here, to hang back if there's a chance the vehicle next to you could turn. I do this myself in town, naturally as I don't want to die. Touch wood, I'm still here.

So you apportion responsibility for the squashing to the squasher and squashee. Well, preacherman, your work here is done. Your congregation of extremely experienced cyclists who are also still here, but only by sheer luck, will stop throwing themselves under HGVs and popping manuals through red lights. We don't know how we managed before we heard your message, but we've seen the errors of our ways and will change. We promise.

There are so many driving sites that don't yet realise that what they're missing is for you to register with a username that just hints at a bit of a trolling and post approx. 30 posts that are similarly patronising to regular and/or professional drivers. You know, the squashers.

If you could miss the point on there too, just in the interests of fairness. Maybe blame the cars, or trucks, or whatever. There is a whole world beyond these comments that needs you.

Applecart wrote:

bikebot wrote:

Applecart wrote:

BikeBud wrote:

When I did some advanced motorcycle training, much of the tuition centred upon anticipation of risk - i.e. the assumption that people do stuff that they shouldn't.  

 

Exactly! What I've tried to say here and elsewhere is what making you a good cyclist or a good driver for that matter is anticipating other peoples' behaviour. That is the whole game.

To repeat, as a cyclist:
1. always presume you haven't been seen
2. if you have been seen, always presume that they under-estimate your speed

THIS WILL HELP YOU TO LIVE. GOOD LUCK!

What is the most famous (and probably the only effective) government information film of all time?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJYA0P5ls8

Understand yet?

 

Yes, I agree that's really effective and we need something similar now for cyclists to make drivers aware of visibility issues. However, cyclists should not be encouraged to undertake at junctions - that is the central message here, to hang back if there's a chance the vehicle next to you could turn. I do this myself in town, naturally as I don't want to die. Touch wood, I'm still here.

OK you didn't understand. I'm going to try a few things, and for various reasons I'm going to be a little blunt. Partly, because I'm in that sort of mood this week, and partly because I think you need it. 

First, with all your advice, try to picture the idea that 99% of people are not colossal fucking idiots. For the 1% who are, the chances of having any affect are zero, they're a matter for the Police.

Second, take the thought that anyone has been or even could be "encouraged to undertake at junctions", wrap it up in a lead lined box and drop it down a very deep shaft. The only people that ever did that, were the berks that designed the lethal combination of feeder lanes and advanced stop lines, which happens to be the same government department making this video.

Third, the ability of a government information film to provide any training benefit is minimal. That isn't how road awareness works. The brain is already wired to be an anticipation machine, 90% of what people attribute as road awareness is simply experience and familiarity. My experience is that the people that put the most faith in training are invariably those with the least actual experience of it (you'll get the same answer from almost all cycling instructors).

The underlying message on the famous 70's bike commerical was very simply, you're dangerous, they're vulnerable, act accordingly.

Fourth, regardless of intentions or claims otherwise, to the majority of people viewing the video it shows the lorry overtaking. Images do not match the message, so that it reinforces a dangerous driving behaviour. A worryingly large number of drivers don't understand the basics of junction priority, and anyone that ever uses the loaded word "undertaking" really doesn't help with that.

In summary

Educational benefit to cyclists: 1 points.
Potential to reinforce dangerous driving: -1,000 points.

Shitness rating: -999 points

And if that isn't clear, just do your best to avoid me for a few days.

simonsays wrote:

I think this advert will help save lives. If you get caught in this position, beside a lorry and a potential left turn you need to take evasive action or be ready too. If you get squashed you are a victim. If you are aware of the danger and ready to avoid it you have taken control of the situation.

Thank god we have public information films to tell people they need to take evasive action when a sodding great big lorry turns across their path.

simonsays wrote:

This is defensive riding and as a cyclist you need to learn how to do it. Education saves lives, arguing over the semantictics of it seems petty. Forget victim blaming, don't be a victim!

Absolutely zero educational content in that video, all it shows is that lorries are dangerous. It doesn't show any way to reduce exposure to that danger (not a request for anyones advice on that BTW).

bikebot wrote:

Absolutely zero educational content in that video, all it shows is that lorries are dangerous. It doesn't show any way to reduce exposure to that danger (not a request for anyones advice on that BTW).

Except for "hang back", the title of the video, that advises you to "hang back" so you don't get squashed by a juggernaut that may not have seen you. Are you on something?

unconstituted wrote:

Yes ASA. Good thinking! Just lodged the complaint on their online form.

Others can have a go too:

 

https://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain.aspx

 

Only takes a couple of minutes, and you can use this link for the location of the footage when they ask for it on the form.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-think-campaign-to-improve-cyclist...

Done! Come on people, let the fat smug useless bastards know we don't have to put up with this crap

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

unconstituted wrote:

Yes ASA. Good thinking! Just lodged the complaint on their online form.

Others can have a go too:

 

https://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain.aspx

 

Only takes a couple of minutes, and you can use this link for the location of the footage when they ask for it on the form.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-think-campaign-to-improve-cyclist...

Done! Come on people, let the fat smug useless bastards know we don't have to put up with this crap

These people are doing their best to save cyclists from getting killed. Describing them as "fat smug useless bastards" I don't think is really doing them justice, regardless of whether you think they are right or wrong. Do you have an anger or attitude problem in everyday life?

Applecart wrote:

Daveyraveygravey wrote:

unconstituted wrote:

Yes ASA. Good thinking! Just lodged the complaint on their online form.

Others can have a go too:

 

https://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain.aspx

 

Only takes a couple of minutes, and you can use this link for the location of the footage when they ask for it on the form.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-think-campaign-to-improve-cyclist...

Done! Come on people, let the fat smug useless bastards know we don't have to put up with this crap

 

These people are doing their best to save cyclists from getting killed. Describing them as "fat smug useless bastards" I don't think is really doing them justice, regardless of whether you think they are right or wrong. Do you have an anger or attitude problem in everyday life?

So you think these people aren't actively trying to make cycling more dangerous and they aren't evil and malicious, they're just incompetent?  Whichever it is, and I tend to the totally incompetent theory, if you can't do the job, you shouldn't be in it, no matter how good your intentions.  What you meant to do doesn't count, it's the actual effect that matters, and if that is the exact opposite of what you meant to do, you are hopelessly incompetent.

unconstituted wrote:

Yes ASA. Good thinking! Just lodged the complaint on their online form.

Others can have a go too:

 

https://www.asa.org.uk/Consumers/How-to-complain.aspx

 

Only takes a couple of minutes, and you can use this link for the location of the footage when they ask for it on the form.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-think-campaign-to-improve-cyclist...

Thanks for the links, I have done this too just now.  I just chose Other and Other in the options and gave the link to it.