Footballer-turned-driving instructor Ashley Neal divides opinion with use of horn in overtaking video

It's true that not every motorist is out to get you but enough are or are incompetent that you pretty much have to assume they all are.

I suspect it was just what came up on a google search.

Nice to see you in the comments on road.cc, but does this mean Ryan needs to change the headine to 'Driving instructor-turned-cyclist'?! 

If it's used to drum up more interest in the subject that's fine by me, but having worked for the press and lived with them in the back of my mind throughout my life I think there was a different motive. Anyway, that's not important but how we treat and interact with each other on the roads is critical. Get rid of the saltiness I say! What do you think Ryan?

Yep, you're right the football reference is not relevant here. I do think it's more likely included as an interesting fact, rather than any other motive, but I can see it could be read a different way.

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Ashley, you should realise that many of the commenters here on Road.cc LIVE for that saltiness! It's what gets them off.

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I thought the same, but not being into football (sorry) it was lost on me.

Worth also remembering that some motorists are also cyclists. Something that seems to often be lost on here. I thought your comment towards the end was on point, we are all just human. Something that seems very pertinent lately globally for so many reasons.

Hi Ashley,

I've come across a few of your videos and found them almost universally enlightening. As a motorist I have nearly 40 years experience, a full motorcycle licence and sporadic IAM advanced driver training, even a short stint as a motorcycle instructor. In all that time and maybe half a million miles I can count genuinely frightening experiences and aggression from other road users in terms of low single figures. I have run cameras on my cars for several years and have nothing worth posting in terms of near misses or being put at risk.

However, on a bicycle there are a small minority of drivers who's incompetence at a simple overtaking manoeuvre, inability to think further ahead than the end of their car bonnet, in-attentiveness and in some cases downright malign aggression have to be witnessed first hand to truly understand.

Personally I have no problems with a good old fashioned courtesy beep on the type of roads I regularly cycle, but I can understand how the everyday experiences of others in different traffic environments give them a less charitable understanding of car horns.

Hope you become a regular contributor on road.cc

I certainly will, as the regular cyclists perspective is always an interest to me. I still cycle myself but very occasionally nowadays.

Lance Strongarm wrote:

I don't believe the people who comment here represent "regular cyclists".

One of them (or is it 6?) certainly doesn't.

Nigel Garage, for 'tis him wrote:

FWIW, I wouldn't appreciate a beep of the horn when being overtaken, and think it's rather discourteous.

If it's a genuinely necessary action to say "I am here" then I have no problem with it, though a tram-style bell might be better.

Lance Strongarm wrote:

I don't believe the people who comment here represent "regular cyclists". As with most media, you're looking at a minority audience who are self-selected by the stories covered, which mainly revolve around tabloidesque Brexit, Tory and motorist-bashing.

OK: I'll bite, Nige.

Kindly define " regular cyclist".

One who's getting their dietary fibre?

Wasn’t worth it, was it?

Sniffer wrote:

Wasn’t worth it, was it?

Nope, really not.

Their response means that their talking about "regular cyclists" is utterly meaningless.

I think they mean that the fact that most commenters on road.cc cycle more than the average, and have stronger opinions about road safety type matters, means that our opinions don't count (?).

Apparently road.cc needs to recruit more commenters who don't cycle at all, or only cycle one day a year while on holiday at Center Parcs or something, before our opinions count...

brooksby wrote:

.....

OK: I'll bite, Nige.

Kindly define " regular cyclist".

One who agrees with him.... Good luck on finding one

I think you'll find you're wrong.

I commute by bicycle and every day, I constantly experience close passes by motorists, used to passing other vehicles with a few inches to spare and do the same to cyclists; it's unnerving and puts most people off bicycle commuting but motorists don't do it to 'punish' cyclists in the main.

Not every motorist is out to get you.

That's an interesting perspective. My personal view is about 1 in 100 motorists is either dangerously incompetent or dangerously malicious. In a typical 60 mile bike ride, statistically I know I am going to meet at least a couple.

Now that malicious or incompetent driving isn't necessarily reserved for cyclists. As a driving instructor, I am sure that you interact with a similar number, some of whom will be triggered by the L plate, others by your mere presence on the road where they would like to be, or they are simply unfit to drive. On this site we have a thread of cars that drive into buildings (oddly drivers never seem to be involved) and it is roughly a daily occurrence just for those that make the press. UK Dodgy drivers is able to fill a weekly video of drivers jumping red lights, driving up pavements, not giving way at roundabouts and so on.

My point is, as defensive riders, we cannot assume that an interaction is going to be a good one so any action a good driver takes that matches that a bad driver might make will be assumed to be that of a bad driver. As most competent drivers manage to wait for their opportunity and pass wide without sounding their horn, the rare driver who thinks they are using advanced communication skills by using their horn is not understanding the other road users perspective. Impatient drivers often sound their horn where the only meaning often is "Please will you kindly dive into the hawthorn hedge so I am not delayed".

Save sounding your horn for when riders are about to endanger themselves or others through their own actions, not simply to make your own journey more efficient.

Again this is very poor underatanding of what the horn is for. It had nothing to do with my journey and all to do with thinking "I'm going to let these guys know I'm coming past". Sad to see tbh.

My point was perspective - you know why you think you are doing it, do you know why the person on the receiving end thinks you are doing it? Are you going to be able to educate a critical mass of cyclists to understand your perspective, and are you also going to be able to educate all the drivers around the UK who misuse the horn so that your interpretation is unambiguous? 

Do you think it is necessary to sound your horn to make a pass safe?

If no, then why sound your horn?

If yes, what behaviour are you trying to trigger in the cyclists, and what is it that they need to do to allow you to pass? Put simply, if it is necessary to sound your horn as you pass, then by definition it is not a safe pass.

This is the important bit (and I do know how irritating it is having a post pedantically being pulled apart, but I do think it is in line with other comments you've made but feel free to say it is not what you meant!) ' "I'm going to let these guys know I'm coming past"' 

If they have not done what you need, why are you only sounding your horn as you commit to the pass, not in preparation? For example, have you followed normal advanced driving practice of pulling out, only then accelerating once you have established that the overtake is on? Have you accelerated at all before sounding your horn? FWIW, I do understand why you believe you are correct in alerting the cyclists, but you then need to go through a few more steps to make the horn part of a system of passing cyclists.

So, taking a general case, you see a cyclist who you are not comfortable passing. Why? Is it that they are in primary and you don't understand why? Is it their body language? Is it erratic road positioning? Is it the banana in one hand, drink bottle in the other? Can you assess the road surface - is the cyclist avoiding poor surface - often cyclists know the roads and plan ahead for poor road surfaces? Might they need to move out further - have they got a desire line to avoid a parked car? Is it windy (which not only affects handling, it affects hearing), are they cycling fast (generating their own wind so oblivious to road noise of a car?). We will assume there are no junctions around because you wouldn't be considering overtaking. Is there a steep hill up or down (a descending cyclist will want the whole lane to themselves at 30+mph, and on extremely steep sections a cyclist will be unstable at low speeds).

What is the process? I would suggest that firstly, as you are not in a position to overtake as you are not confident, you should adopt a distant follow. If you are convinced that the rider is not aware of you, you could, from that distant follow sound a horn. (If they are behaving as if they are aware of you, then sounding a horn is wrong). Then, having established that the cyclist is aware of you (do they reposition, do they give a friendly/unfriendly(!) acknowledgement, are they shoulder checking, have they delliberately moved to a secondarly position?) have the circumstances changed?  If there is sufficient visibility and room to make a pass, you can approach the cyclist and take up a closer follow position for a pass (iwthout being intimidating). Is there sufficient room for a safe pass?  Yes, move out and then accelerate moderately - your passing time will be low and the relative speed less, no, pull back in until circumstances change.

One of the classic driver mistakes is leaving a big run up - it is bad enough for passing cars and considerably worse for cycles - one of the reasons why a close pass is intimidating is the speed at which many drivers pass - they spot a cyclist in the distance and accelerate as they believe this guarantees them getting ahead (and you can usually hear cars accelerate firmly behind you well before they pull out) - but it means that they are totally committed if the circumstances change as due to the speed differential they cannot brake behind the cyclist - the usual result is the squeeze as they try to recover from their misjudgement. The advanced driving principle of positioning close behind a cyclist at a matched speed, then pulling out then accelerating is even more important - you are going to want to run into the back of a cyclist less than a car.

Do you see how I've tried to approach this from the advanced driving perspective? What I am challenging you on is to see if you have thought through what the complete system is for passing cyclists and where sounding the horn fits in with that.

Absolutely agree that not every motorist is out to get me when I'm on my bike (or indeed, on foot or in the car). In fact, I'd go so far to say it is a tiny minority. Unfortunately though, it only takes one.

I'm on the fence for the informative 'toot toot'... in theory it should be fine, in practice I don't think there are many situations where I need to be made aware of the car behind me so it can come off as impatience. But, if it's a double toot and it is followed up with some form of acknowledgement by both parties then it's ok.

I've never understood why the double toot is friendlier than the single toot. There must be some psychology behind it. I'm enjoying how much I am using the word toot this morning.

I also don't understand why acknowledgment whilst driving seems to have fallen out of favour. It's a much more pleasant driving experience to acknowledge someone who let's your, even if it is your priority. Nod, raise your finger (not that finger!), smile, raise hand... whatever, but have some damn courtesy. I genuinely think there is a correlation between dangerous motorists and ill-mannered motorists.

Rant over

JustTryingToGetFromAtoB wrote:

I've never understood why the double toot is friendlier than the single toot.

I would guess because it implies some degree of control - if the hoot is coming from a place of aggression, frustration, anger, etc. then it's more likely to result in the slamming of a hand into the horn and a single long blast.

Ashley Neal wrote:

Nice to see my use of the horn being actively discussed and remember not every motorist is out to get you. My last point is to the author Ryan Mallon. What was your thinking behind the "Footballer" title? It has no relevance to road safety or to the video, and it seemed a bit "Tabloid" to me. I asked the same question on the Twitter post without you answering. 

I'd agree with teh sentiment that has already been posted - largely your videos are helpful

Instructing other drivers that it's ok to beep at people on bikes is not. There is not a situation where it is useful to me when I'm on a bike - please don't do it. I know you're there. If you can pass safely do so. If you can't, simply wait..

As I mentioned elsewhere (and not just on this thread) a sizable proportion of riders share the view (developed through direct experience) that it's  aggressive, intimidating and frightening. All horns sound the same, with very few if any having any kind of volume modulation, so regardless of your intent, that IS how it comes across.

Lastly remember you're not just instructing drivers to beep at "mamils" (no that that that would be ok ), you are instructing them to beep at anyone (male/female, young/old) that they believe is "in their way". Drivers who regular sound their horn at people on bikes are intimidating women, children and teh elderly as well.  I don't need to tell you this IS against the highway code, and is one of teh factors that deters parents allowing their children teh freedom to cycle, and also sets up barriers to women cycling;

Among those who didn’t ride, the most common barriers to cycling participation were that roads in the area were not safe (39%), had no bike lanes (30%), and a lack of confidence while cycling (27%). 

and of course the lack of confidence and feelings of not being safe comes primarily from interactions, or the fear of interactions, with motorists

In short, sounding your horn at people on bikes is sexist too - I'll turn round and tell you to do one. Women are deterred from cycling altogether. 

Please actually think how use of the horn affects those it's directed against, and please stop enabling the idea that horn use is ok against vulnerable road users

So, I should not use the horn correctly because others don't?! You better never ride again then! 

Ashley Neal wrote:

So, I should not use the horn correctly because others don't?! You better never ride again then! 

No, use of horn around cyclists is unnecessary and intimidating. Don't use your horn around cyclists.

It's interesting that in spite of being informed of the effects of horn use around vulnerable road users, you are intent on using it against them.

If you think that pip of my horn was intimidating you've got loads to learn, and this is evident with you saying "using it against them" when in fact it was for them.  Not all "toots" are in aggression, not all motorists are out to get you and not all cyclists just think of themselves.

Ashley Neal wrote:

If you think that pip of my horn was intimidating you've got loads to learn, and this is evident with you saying "using it against them" when in fact it was for them.  Not all "toots" are in aggression, not all motorists are out to get you and not all cyclists just think of themselves.

Again, you've been informed on teh effect it has on people. Your view is that they have to understand that 

1.  It's Ashley Neal behind them, (and he's definitely ok)
2.  teh exact intent of thehorn (definitely not "get out of my way")

You state yourself that you know next to nothing about regular riding

But its others have much to learn, and have to work around you....

TBH, it hasn't yet been established that you are using the horn correctly. You think you are, others are questioning that certainty.

Obviously I am just some guy on the Internet. Do you have access to a top level advanced instructor to discuss this with? Have you thought of asking the Manchester cycling commissioner? I would think that the answer is not black and white, much like whether you should only signal if you know there is someone there to see it (as an observational aid - but for example some will recommend always signalling on a roundabout to avoid having to signal if the situation changes).

I'm a former traffic cop in Australia, so perhaps the rules are different, but the ONLY time a motorist should use their horn is to warn other road users of their presence if the other road user is presenting a danger; an obvious example is when the other road user changes lanes, unaware of your presence alongside.

The rule in the UK is more ambiguous, in that it leaves out the bit about the other road user presenting a danger. However, it does contain one important word that's been overlooked in much of the debate - it says that you should only use it when you need to warn others of your presence. Not because you want them to be aware of it, or even because you think they might like to be aware of it, but when you need to.

If you're a driver following cyclists and wishing to overtake, there are two possibilities:

1. you can complete the overtake safely, without creating any risk to the cyclists. In which case, simply carry out the manoeuvre. Since you're not creating any risk to them, there is no need to make them aware of your presence.
2. you cannot overtake safely. In this case, you shouldn't overtake - you should wait until you can do so safely. And since you're not overtaking, again, there is no need to make the cyclists aware of your presence.

So, in short, in this situation, you should not be using the horn.