“Next you’ll be asking if drink driving laws are fair”: UK Government asks motorists “caught out” by cycle lanes if current traffic fines are “fair to drivers”, leaving cyclists baffled

Possibly the most biased government poll I've ever seen, but then, I've never lived in North Korea.

Interesting article published by Dutch News (link below). I don't drive much in NL, so didn't know that you can effectively keep racking up fines without any consequence other than financial. Probably explains why when I do drive, there are so many speeders on the highway, and what I feel is a big increase in speeding in urban areas.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/2024/05/safety-campaigners-call-for-crackdown-o...

Yeah, this whole thing can really just get to fuck. But that's what we're up against - the normalisation of the plucky chancer driver, the demonisation of the rules of the road anyone whose job it is to try to uphold them and efforts to restrict the means to uphold the rules such that it only ever scratches the surface.

And that's what happens when you try to assuage fanatics and nutjobs - nothing you do (e.g. Rwanda) will be enough for them, nothing you do will ever satisfy them.  

The bit of reasonably good news from the local election results is that this bollocks is not cutting through with the electorate - like Sadiq Khan is home and dry in London and Labour are strong in cities like Southampton and Exeter, the Greens in Bristol. 

Earlier this year, the Facebook algorithm served me up one of the "been caught speeding?" Groups, so I sat in for a few days.  The commonest post was along the lines of "caught doing 50 in a 40 - what am I looking at?" So the good news was that drivers seem to be are afraid of the speed cameras and there is palpable desperation to get a course rather than (still more) points. 

Long read time 

And forever and anon throughout his future life, an agony constraineth him to travel from land to land and to teach by his own example, love and reverence to all things

That's the TL:DR message from The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. I didn't do very well at Eng Lit. 

I've recently encountered a nadir with the driver accounts in my local comment column, around our 20 mph proposals.  When asked what they're doing to stop killing the 4 people a day, I'm up against things like "so what?" "Think of all the people that don't die", and the usual references to other situations in which people die like accidents at home (so what?)

What has happened to them to diminish basic respect for life? Maybe they've never been visited by death in their own lives, maybe they have been and it has all just bounced off a hard shell or was never there in the first place ? Is it all just a big game of GTA to them? 

A kid at school was killed by driver in 1976. One driver slowed or stopped to let him and his mate out from a side road, another overtook took the first. I didn't know him, but I know the spot where it happened, not far from home. I can see his face and I remember the solemn memorial assembly we had at school.  I have to cross a double lane road on my commute - some drivers are good enough to slow down and beckon me across, but they're not thinking about what's in the other lane. 

Just after sixth form a classmate had his dad's powerful BMW one evening and rammed it into a tree.  A funeral to go to for a young bloke my own age (18). 

'Fair' to drivers, an interesting idea; aren't drivers super privileged to start with? They can afford it for a start (many other road users can't), they just sit there, warm and dry and go where and when they please and feel justified in complaining when their told to behave more responsibly. It's about time that it was made very clear to drivers that driving was a privilege which will be taken away if/when they break the rules, do just that, don't fine them; we need good drivers and fewer bad ones and their cars. 

Say they aren't fair, why should it be a single fine. Cost the same if someone is on minimum wage vs 100s of times more than that. After a third offence should have to go court. You hear about people parking on yellow lines because it's just easier to pay the  daily fine

" Use Union Jack / George Cross backgrounds or flags placed upon signage...
Put it in Braille also...
Get bigger/more signs sponsored by gambling companies... "

"Punishable by a fine" means "Legal for the rich"...

For those hard done but otherwise law abiding motorist, I always think that there should be an option for halving the fine and doubling the points I wonder how many would take it up?

No fines but points?
If you appeal signage inadequate and isn't then you pay a cost for checking plus get points
And fix company owned vehicles not identifying drivers. Fix drivers with too many points still being allowed to drive.
Don't ask me how to sort drivers who have lost license still driving but there must be a way to fix it...I'd go for privatised road side checks and vehicles confiscated and sold ..1 claim of unauthorised allowed and that's it
In favour of a war

Quote:

12. Describe any ideas you have for measures that would help drivers comply with moving traffic, yellow box junction, bus lane or parking restrictions. 

Increase fines. The current government is rather fond of deterrents.

Ask your average Daily Mail reader if crime should go unpunished, and they won't want to answer.

Maybe the Government could introduce a set monthly fee that allows drivers to be caught out as much as they like!  It could replace the Ulez charge!  I think I should apply for an advisor role to Sunak!

I suspect that the point of this is more to stop those eeeevil councils finding a revenue stream, damn them!

Did the survey - bit odd as it does seem rather leading, but then there's a section saying "ah but they can't just wildly spend the money on their own bonuses".

"Fairness" for me suggests that rather than "but cash cow motorists!" the way to judge fairness is:

(a) are the rules clear*? and

(b) are they sufficient to actually change behaviour - but not too far beyond?  Obviously without some kind of means testing they're just going to be petty expenses for the rich.  However if they're not actually changing behaviour then I'd suggest they're too low rather than unfairly high.

Why should these have to be less than it costs to enforce them to be fair?

* Rules - most should if they've passed a driving test.  For specific signage this can be challenged in court (and is) if it's unclear.

I was conflicted as to whether to respond that the current enforcement is "fair" as I would consider it "unfair" in terrms of the danger that some drivers cause to others, but I know that they're looking to get lots of "unfair" results in the consultation, so I felt forced to respond "fair" and then go into detail in the text submissions instead.

The juxtaposition between the tweet, apparently asking drivers for their views on how they should be fined, and the actual consultation linked to, is wild. The consultation is clearly aimed on local authorities, not the general public. Did the person running the DfT's Twitter account even read the consultation?

I have responded pointing out that the best way to help drivers comply would be to have stricter enforcement and harsher punishment as we all know that would deter many drivers from taking the chance and help them pay attention to their surroundings whilst operating a two tonne bit of machinery.

All the boxes are free text, so you can write what you like - eg

" ‘Caught out’? Are the huge signs and paint in the road not clear enough for you? Wouldn’t that count as driving without due care and attention? Don’t complain. Hand your licence in. You don’t deserve the privilege of driving on public roads. "