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Cyclist antipathy

Do some motorists dislike cyclists because they think our use of the roads is without a legitimate purpose? 

While we see going for a bike ride to enjoy an hour or so riding out as normal behaviour, do they see that as not a legitimate reason for using the road? If someone is dressed in lycra is this antipathy further exacerbated as they are clearly dressed for a sporting endeavour not for going to the shop, place of work, pub, friend's house? 

If cyclists were perceived as being on essential or unavoidable journeys would it change the perception?

I am not sure it would entirely but I do think there is a feeling among some motorists that cyclists lack legitimacy hence the repeated calls for Tax and Registration and Insurance. Then Cyclists would have to obey the rules of the road wouldn't they? I mean no car driver has ever sped, jumped a light, have they? People that behave less than well exist in every class of road user. 

I do think the advent of 20mph limits for cars will see cyclists eventually having to observe the 20mph limit as well. When 20mph roads were uncommon it did not matter but as they become more common I think it is inevitable. How they bring it in I don't know, speedometers on a bike fitted from new would have to happen but what about people like me riding bicycles built in the 1970's I do have a phone but I don't always have it with me or turned onto a bike computer app especially if I am miles from home it is then probably on google maps so I don't get lost.

 

 

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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46 comments

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Envee NV | 4 months ago
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I can only presume that those who do close passes do it on purpose and it is to "pay back" us cyclists. They were most likely shouted at for one reason or another by a cyclist and since they know we do not like being passed that close at speed, this is how they pay us back.

When in reality all this does is make us angry and shout back at them since we always catch them at the next light.

Road tax was abolished in 1937 and wikipedia has it wrong, as they list it as 1932. But this does not stop ignorant people from shouting that at us. My answer is usually : "Neither do you."

Sometimes i wish the government would tax and license us. There would be ZERO reasons to let any car pass us at all. They would have to wait till they can find a spot to pass us with the required 1.5 meter space. Good luck with that in the UK where the car minded planning has made sure that on most roads nothing but one car can drive at any one time.

Let the government pass insurance, tax and licensing laws. By all means.

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chrisonabike replied to Envee NV | 4 months ago
1 like
Envee NV wrote:

Sometimes i wish the government would tax and license us. There would be ZERO reasons to let any car pass us at all. They would have to wait till they can find a spot to pass us with the required 1.5 meter space. Good luck with that in the UK where the car minded planning has made sure that on most roads nothing but one car can drive at any one time.

Let the government pass insurance, tax and licensing laws. By all means.

Wouldn't change anything.

Cyclists are *in the way*.

We would still be *others* because a) there will only be a tiny fraction of people cycling as opposed to driving on busy roads or where speeds are high (just doesn't feel safe or pleasant to most people) b) cyclists just behave differently from drivers eg. can filter, accelerate differently, have lower speeds etc.

Because of the perceived pressure for drivers to go at the minimum speed limits failing to wait until you can pass safely is not uncommon *.

As to "on most roads nothing but one car can drive at any one time" it is and isn't planning. In fact a lot of roads - certainly most distributors in Edinburgh - are very wide. (In part i think bus companies are major lobbyists for certain minimums). However due to the general view that parking is allowed by default ** means all that space is lost under parked vehicles (even if "justing" - just into the shops / delivering for 2 minutes...)

* In Edinburgh I'd say that a substantial majority of drivers do pass considerately - of course it's those that don't which are very salient!

** Also part because of our confusion of roles for streets / multifunction approach eg. roads are for through traffic AND destinations/"places "

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chrisonabike replied to Envee NV | 4 months ago
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Envee NV wrote:

I can only presume that those who do close passes do it on purpose and it is to "pay back" us cyclists. They were most likely shouted at for one reason or another by a cyclist and since they know we do not like being passed that close at speed, this is how they pay us back.

Some clearly know it's not pleasant - eg. they're gunning the engine or blasting the horn as they accelerate past. Some are probably utterly ignorant because *it feels safe to them* passing things in their vehicle... you really do have a different perspective from behind the windshield.

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wycombewheeler | 5 months ago
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every motor journey ever is for utilitarian purposes. No one is ever driving for a leisure activity, such as going to the beach, walk in the country, shopping etc etc.

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JLasTSR replied to wycombewheeler | 5 months ago
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I know what you mean but all of those are a drive to then do something. A Sunday afternoon drive round the lanes does happen quite a lot but the people that do it are often derided. Quite a lot of cyclists myself included go cycling for the sake of cycling not to go to a destination but to train for an event or just to go for a bike ride. 

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chrisonabike replied to JLasTSR | 5 months ago
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Difficult to tease apart though - people do drive out to a destination "to get some air" / "take a break", where I might just go for a cycle.  Similar reason I'd say - definitely so if it's "drive out to take a walk".  They drive to the potter, I just potter all the way!

A common question is "but what about the social dimension - we drive to a cafe (I drive someone else)".  (Driving as performing a service / fulfiling social obligations).  Depending on distance and persons that can certainly be more convenient by car, but a) we could certainly fix it so it's easier for people to cycle together to places (safe to cycle with your children) and b) for cycling we've somehow got the convention that it (uniquely) cannot be a social transport mode unlike walking (well, narrow footways are a thing...), driving, taking the bus...

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marmotte27 replied to JLasTSR | 5 months ago
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Car brain at work there...

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Steve K replied to JLasTSR | 5 months ago
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JLasTSR wrote:

I know what you mean but all of those are a drive to then do something. A Sunday afternoon drive round the lanes does happen quite a lot but the people that do it are often derided. Quite a lot of cyclists myself included go cycling for the sake of cycling not to go to a destination but to train for an event or just to go for a bike ride. 

So driving to the gym to then sit on a static bike to get exercise is a "utiliratian purpose" but riding a bike to get exercise isn't?

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S.E. | 5 months ago
1 like

Obviously a mix of group think/feel, carelessness, inattention, and risks of the traffic... on both sides, drivers and bikers!

I watched 3 trucks almost drive over cyclists in less than a week, all drivers were faulty (and none of the bikers were in lycra!) One of them a large hazmat, honked repeatedly at the cyclist, the driver probably unaware that he had made a wrong 90° turn in this intersection (the traffic light for the bikes was green). The worst part is that it encouraged a bus driver on the opposite direction to honk generously at another biker who was riding on the common bike/bus/taxi lane...

Riding on bike lanes I had two cars coming from side roads, slowly stopping in front of me, and staying there, while I was wondering what to do - in this situation a more upright position or a mirror would help to quickly look over the shoulder for incoming traffic while making sure that the faulty car doesn't move. Why did they behave like that, poor sight/poor brain, or antipathy, I still can't tell, I couldn't see any reaction from the drivers, like frozen...

Even weirder, a few weeks ago, from a good distance I see this cyclist walking barefoot, holding his bike, coming from the walking path with his girlfriend (I guess), and both stopping in front of me on the biking lane (the markings are obivous, continuous, you can't miss them). I slow down to let them walk away, but he didn't, he just stayed there for no apparent reason, proudly staring at me, while the girl slowly moves away and watch the scene from aside. I had to stop, and shook my head in disbelief... Just like the OP I still struggle to understand what happened there? Maybe he disliked my style - old road bike, not too flashy, unbranded frame, almost vintage in fact, and I haven't been wearing lycra for years! but maybe still a bit "cocky" compared to his style? Much younger than me, barefoot but with what looked like a city/MTB, I certainly don't know him. More cyclists were coming behind me (real lycra and racing bikes this time) they also had to stop, so he finally walked away, with an icy "sorry"... Crazy people people out there, although neither him nor the girl looked like real dropouts, more expensive bikes than mine probably.

In addition to the inherent risks of the road and the city, I get the impression that some people are trying to make things worse, create divisions, sow discord. It's like they have an agenda, so we have to be very careful not to fall into that trap and overreact!

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bensynnock replied to S.E. | 4 months ago
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When they pull out from side roads like that I guess it's because they're turning right and don't want to wait for both lanes to be clear at the same time, so they block off the left hand lane. It happens very very often, and it seems a lot of people think it's the right way to drive. You'll even see people just stopping on a free moving road to allow people to do this in front of them. It bothers motorists less than it does cyclists because they do it themselves and they haven't just put in a good effort to get up to speed which they now have to do again.

It's just poor driving. The rule is simple, give way when required, go when not.

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arckuk | 6 months ago
11 likes

I think a lot of this would be fairly inconsequential - I don't really care hugely whether as a cyclist I am perceived poorly - but for the fact that the potential outcomes of interaction between cyclists and motorists are important. Risk of injury and worse increase pretty quickly as the amount of care that others take around us reduces slightly, so even a slight feeling of antipathy from those whom we are sharing roads can have really important consquences. Those stirring up and encouraging these feelings need to reflect on this an awful lot harder than they appear to be doing now.

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JLasTSR replied to arckuk | 6 months ago
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Totally agree with this. 

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mattw | 6 months ago
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Agree with much of the post.

My point is that it is important to distinguish between eg:

- trolls (Who inhabit parts of eg twitter, facebook and nextdoor),
- unthinking followers of the trolls,
- the readers of the trolls who may be convinced,
- those with platforms who are looking for personal or political advantage (eg Telegraph journos, Mr Poophole, IDS),
- those with real concerns which must be addressed not dismissed (eg visually impaired people who have been hit by people riding cycles, hacked e-cycles etc on footways),
- those who may have a point but need to be educated,
- those making ill-informed assumptions from lack of knowledge (eg who support broad-brush PSPOs that ban 'cycling' rather than implement appropriate enforcement on ASB),
- those who cannot see how they can credibly do less driving in 2024 given the state of the roads.
- those who have embraced pieces of conspiracy theories, or swallowed them wholesale.

And sometimes there are mixes of these. All that can give an ida of how particular people or groups can be influenced.

For example I'd see IDS and his allies as both ill-informed and ignirant, and proposing a measure that looks attractive to some who he wants to vote for him, but which is ill-conceived and will not work. Can any of his followers be influenced by proposing something better, rather than saying "nah nah nah" and dancing on his political grave? How much of this is is fear or silo thinking rather than dedicated ideological opposition? The former are easier to address imo.

In Change Management, different groups with different attitudes are addressed by different tactics eg encourage, engage and educate, emoliate, exclude, eviscerate - depending on the attitude, and the desired outcome.

I tend to block drive-by trolls on twitter, as irredeemable, but they may have readers who can be educated or convinced, or indeed may educate me.

There are imo useful ideas around these in how we handle public debate. 

The Telegraph need to be treated harshly because they are shit-shovellers who know exactly what they are doing, but their 'supprters' may have narrower real concerns which can potentially be stood down from "bloody cyclist - bash the lot", to something more focused. IDS can imo be treated as a soon-to-be-sunk-cost, who will leave a potentially-to-be-filled gap in the debate.

I think one area where good work has been done on social media is around demonstrating that a large majority of cyclists have insurance, for example.

There is a good presentation over at Active Travel Cafe by the leader of the Green Group in Darlington Council about the problems caused by timidity and conservatism amongst Officers and Councillors, and some tactics they have used. One is 'cycle safari' - putting a colleague on a cycle and getting them to do ordinary things eg "go and buy a loaf of bread from Tesco", aiming  to let them see in a mirror that their own policies are not serving elements of the community.

Worth a listen.
https://youtu.be/nw_gBxUx_ss?t=598

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JLasTSR replied to mattw | 6 months ago
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I am pretty sure the Telegraph has a wider range of readers with interests that encompass a huge range of activities. However you are right it is often that like most papers when you take a position of; outraged at what is going on; you are more likely to appeal to your audience. "Nothing to see here" is a terrible headline. 

While I do a little shopping on the bike it is not really great for shopping as I have nowhere to put anything, but then I have never tried to make it a load carrying machine. Quite a good idea that, I might equip one with shopping carrying accoutrements.

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chrisonabike replied to JLasTSR | 6 months ago
3 likes

To remix Mark Twain - get a shopping bike *. You will not regret it, if you Lidl.

* or convert an existing one - but my experience has been that there is a reason why Dutch bikes are designed how they are. That includes not *just* "practical and very low maintenance" but something about the upright position being really cheerful for shorter trips (yes, if you're doing a tour stage to get there or are just unhappy below 18mph something else is more suitable).

've done shopping on every bike I've owned but my most upright one is now my go-to and I actually enjoy the mundane chores!

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the little onion | 6 months ago
10 likes

It's all about "othering" - seeing other people as outgroups, the binary opposite of you and people like you. So illegitimate versus legitimate road users. Reckless versus safe. Them not us. Freeloaders versus hard-working. 

 

It's all constantly reinforced by media, and a lack of empathy or understanding. You never will, nor do you want to, experience their point of view, because their view and experience is not valid. It leads to dehumanising the other.

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JLasTSR replied to the little onion | 6 months ago
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A very Peter Gabriel Not One of Us position. Groups feeling stronger by excluding others. 

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kingleo | 6 months ago
12 likes

Winston Churchill got it right when he abolished road tax, because as he said' motorists will believe they have moral ownership to  the roads'

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lonpfrb | 6 months ago
3 likes

The product of mainstream media click bait i.e. hate speech to identify an out group now that the law prevents their public disrespect and hatred of protected characteristics.

So they can't indulge their confirmation bias against your skin colour, race, sexuality, gender but heaven help you for the wrong choice of transport!

No, they haven't connected this to national success at Olympic level as thinking is a bit of an unwelcome imposition...

Anti-cycling bingo is a badge of ignorance, worn by the MSM and their audience.

Imagine not knowing how your tax is spent and why vehicle excise duty costs more for unsustainable vehicles...

There's a strong narcissistic tendency
Me! Me! Me! Me!
and sod the public good...

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giff77 | 6 months ago
11 likes

I honestly feel that it's very much a phenomenon that has grown and developed over the last 10/15 years. As a young adult in the eighties I never really heard peers ​grumble about people cycling and if they did it wasn't to the same levels as we hear today. Even when out on the bike in the seventies I never experienced close passes that have engrained themselves on my formative mind to a level that would put me off cycling.

As a middle aged man I do have experiences of shocking driving behaviours that I can drill down to the minuscule detail that are now permanently etched in my memory and have had days where I've been close to feck it,  I've had enough and I'm not going to put friends and family through the trauma of my not coming home because of some distracted or vindictive motorist. 

This antipathy has been driven mainly by various columnists over recent years with their uneducated rants and social media with yet even more uneducated posters who have convinced themselves that this information is carved in stone and believe it completely. It shows how persuasive some of the negative arguments have been. Many motorists have become more selfish, aggressive and impatient on the roads which flys in the face of my being taught the three c's of consideration, care and courtesy many years ago.

I once asked somebody if they were as nasty to other people as they were to those who cycled. They couldn't give me an answer. 

People have convinced themselves that people who cycle are the pariah of society and that they need taken down a peg or two  in the same way they've convinced themselves that there's also a war on the motorist with speeding fines, ICEs being phased out, LEZs being established, 15 minute cities  the list is endless.

 

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mattw replied to giff77 | 6 months ago
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I like your definition of Middle Aged Man.

Said the 50+ youthful whipper-snapper.

Good comments, too.

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brooksby replied to mattw | 6 months ago
6 likes

Every now and again I catch a glimpse of myself in a mirror or in a window as I ride past, and I think, "Oh - sh!t - yeah, I'm old, aren't I?"

(I'm 53)

What is it they say - it's weird to think that I'm the same age as old people.

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wycombewheeler replied to giff77 | 6 months ago
4 likes

giff77 wrote:

...I've had enough and I'm not going to put friends and family through the trauma of my not coming home because of some distracted or vindictive motorist. 

Unfortunatelely I've come to the conclusion that between house equity, my pension fund and death in service insurance, my children (now young adults with almots no hope of buying a home) would be better off financially if some distracted motorist did stop me coming home permanantly. So I only now worry about the chance of coming home with permanant disability from a distracted driver.

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JLasTSR replied to giff77 | 6 months ago
2 likes

As a 57 year old with a replacement hip due on July 7th I am working on the fact that my average age will actually go down this year! Feeling old this past 6 months since a collision speeded the hip and concussed me quite badly. Strangely I still struggle to focus on things I should focus on.

I do remember one close pass when I was 13 a Metal Box lorry passed me in Gay Bowers so close it really scared me, and on another occasion when I was 16 in Great Waltham I I was left hooked so badly I had to turn left with the car and eventually came off because the kerb got too high and the space too narrow but by then I was just about behind the car.  

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Tom_77 | 6 months ago
8 likes

I have occasionally seen people express the view that a bicycle is essentially a child's toy (much like a space hopper or pogo stick) and that no adult should use one. I don't think this view is particularly widespread though. There's no shortage of anger towards Deliveroo cyclists who are clearly cycling for work.

There was an article a while back on the BBC suggesting that cyclists are perceived as free-loading - not paying road tax, jumping queues, etc.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

 

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hawkinspeter replied to Tom_77 | 6 months ago
5 likes

Tom_77 wrote:

I have occasionally seen people express the view that a bicycle is essentially a child's toy (much like a space hopper or pogo stick) and that no adult should use one. I don't think this view is particularly widespread though. There's no shortage of anger towards Deliveroo cyclists who are clearly cycling for work.

There was an article a while back on the BBC suggesting that cyclists are perceived as free-loading - not paying road tax, jumping queues, etc.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

That doesn't make sense to me as why would an adult want to punish children? If an adult is seen playing with a "child's toy", then one logical deduction would be that maybe the adult has developmental difficulties and so drivers should take extra care around them - it certainly wouldn't be an appropriate response to shout at and scare such an individual.

Anyhow, there's plenty of toys that are popular with children and adults, so who makes them the arbiter of what age is appropriate for the toy? I mean I once completed a jigsaw that said 3-5 years on the box, but I'm pretty cool as it only took me a few hours.

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giff77 replied to hawkinspeter | 6 months ago
4 likes

I did have a work colleague comment on would it not be better to come to work in a car rather than a toy. He shut up when I told him my bike was worth more than his car. 

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JLasTSR replied to Tom_77 | 6 months ago
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Good point about deliveroo and courier riders, that rather shoots my idea down. Ho him back to the drawing board. 

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GMBasix replied to JLasTSR | 6 months ago
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JLasTSR wrote:

Good point about deliveroo and courier riders, that rather shoots my idea down. Ho him back to the drawing board. 

But that blatent utilitarian function is helpfully outweighted by the FACT that every single Deliveruber rider is trained to ride fat bikes with 7kW motors at spine-chilling speeds along the footway and through every traffic light (but only on red).

We are also obliged to overlook the economic pressures that encourage both work-related cycling and delivery van drivers* to take shortcuts with the rules in order to bring home the bacon.

(* their defence is, of course, that they are doing a hard day's work, and where would your Amazon tat come from if every 3rd vehicle on the road wasn't a delivery van #waronmotorists)

Therefore, riding for work is a Bad Thing.

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hawkinspeter replied to GMBasix | 6 months ago
1 like

GMBasix wrote:

But that blatent utilitarian function is helpfully outweighted by the FACT that every single Deliveruber rider is trained to ride fat bikes with 7kW motors at spine-chilling speeds along the footway and through every traffic light (but only on red).

We are also obliged to overlook the economic pressures that encourage both work-related cycling and delivery van drivers* to take shortcuts with the rules in order to bring home the bacon.

(* their defence is, of course, that they are doing a hard day's work, and where would your Amazon tat come from if every 3rd vehicle on the road wasn't a delivery van #waronmotorists)

Therefore, riding for work is a Bad Thing.

I'd interpret all the bad behaviour by Deliveruber riders as being an indictment of our roads and how designing them primarily for cars isn't working as well as we've been promised. If you want to get around the place quickly (and cheaply), then a car isn't going to be of much use.

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