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Uses for a bit of road?

I was inspired by another poster today and reminded that up here in Scotland several of our cities have more than 1/3 of the space devoted to motor vehicles.  That's a lot of space we could use!

... and it seems even the local council's started eyeing it up too.  That's great for me because I don't even pay road tax!

So what examples have people got of things you can do with some road - other than driving on it, having a traffic jam on it or parking on it?

I'll kick off with some examples I spotted on my evening pootle in Edinburgh.  (apologies - I've just realised that of course the more recent comments appear at the top, so the order is back to front, whatever.)

If you're new please join in and if you have questions pop them below and the forum regulars will answer as best we can.

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26 comments

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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More "emergency-level" / "poor city's interventions".  Make a school street less attractive to drive into* and eliminate passing traffic.  Also - this is now more attractive as a "route" and a link to fully off-road cycle paths.

Whitehouse Loan (Streetview shows "before").

* Some might consider driving in here anyway to drop off then trying to turning and get back out.  This was a concern raised when this was put in.  I don't know how it's worked out except that it's still there after other stuff got junked, so guessing the world didn't end...

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Not quite reclaiming a road but a very large pedestrian island has been adapted to make it convenient for cyclists to deal with road crossings in sections and have a place to wait separate from pedestrians crossing the main road.

Argyle Place.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Reclaim a chunk of street, and improve several things at once: decrease motor vehicle permeability (which likely helps traffic flow on the main road in the background here).  By blocking off a chunk there's an effective "continuous footway / cycle path" also.

Meadow Place.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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You don't need to grab all the road, or even a lane.  What about a "disaster intervention" level reclaiming of space - outside a school for example?

Pilton / Boswall.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Quiet residential side streets?  We shouldn't be setting expectations with wide turn radii for high speed entry/exit, not tolerating parking right up to the main street (makes observation difficult).  What about... making it easy for pedestrians to keep right on going with some continous footway?

They've not got it quite right here - far too many markings (it should just be footway across the side road, zero difference as this is pedestrian space!) although I'm not kerb nerd enough to know the rules here.  Also could use a sharper up and down for vehicles.  Plus the entry / exit should ideally be single lane - maybe too much for UK drivers yet though?

Park Road

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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This is almost there!  Less distinction between the rest of the footway and the part crossing the exit.  Yeah there's a wiggle for bikes again - lend them a ruler next time...  Nice narrow exit (albeit by fiat, it's one-way).  Tight turn radii.  Not A grade but good enough?  I do wonder if the lack of vision for drivers combined with the lack of "waiting space" here mean our drivers just ignore the fact that they're crossing pedestrian and cycle space and bully their way out regardless?

Arthur Street off Leith Walk
 

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Are you a place which can / wants to attract tourists?  Or encourage shopping?  How about a bit of full pedestrianisation?  Don't panic - after a bit of disruption (nothing's perfect) the evidence is your business will be better than ever.

But... unless you build a fortress of bollards, you still need to police it firmly.

Castle Street / Rose Street

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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"Instant LTN" treatment.  Quick and pretty cheap.  However this is actually a bit of an exception - this is a "second coming", due to the massive decade-plus of disruption on parallel Leith Walk.  (approximate dates - Streetview) In 2011 it was blocked with concrete blocks, by 2014 it had a neat pavement and bollards treatment (low kerb but no ramp for cycling, grr).  But by 2022 this had disappeared to allow this to be a route (one way) to bypass Leith Walk.

No idea they couldn't fix it for cycle access this time (perhaps "we've given you cycle paths on Leith Walk, don't get cocky"?).  The concrete blocks over a decade ago were fine...

Cambridge Avenue off Pilrig Street (Streetview jumps about in time!)

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Or a slalom?

Actually - don't do as we did it.

Still do it!  Just do it properly.  Because once the dust has settled people will get on with their lives as always.  And after a few years - if their attention is drawn to it - it lots will say that the place is nicer.  Drivers will probably complain, but we're always complaining.  It's never like it is in the adverts, and you're spending time driving, with all those other drivers...

And give the people behind this thanks for sticking their necks out.  Sincerely - amid all the shouting of "not one less square inch from the hard-pressed motorist!  We're not cash cows!" or "you'll force us out of business" or "pedestrians are seriously worried; I know folks trapped in their homes" etc.

BUT then get those designers - or more pertinently the managers and councillors who actually do the horse-trading about what's requested and prioritised - a couple of hours of BicycleDutch videos, or NotJustBikes, or (because UK) Ranty Highwayman etc.  Or even better a junket to NL, Scandinavia, or even some places in Germany to actually use different modes and be in these spaces.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Or some public "art" or features?  In the UK we seem to have not just "maximum capacity for motor traffic" but "maximum permeability for motor traffic".  Hence shouts about LTNs.  But really - with a car you don't have to pedal.  Yes, inefficient to go further but ... actually, we need it not to be so convenient for us.  Because it's already too convenient to drive so we all do and that ruins it for us all.  And especially for those who really have to drive.  (Not "it was raining / I was late / I'd just got my suit back from the cleaners so I had to drive".)

So ... no need for this side street also to exit onto Leith Walk.  So a nice, relaxed continous footway, and probably nicer for residents with no through traffic too.

Iona street - compare in e.g. 2018 (access) v.s more recently.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Leith Walk.  It's a mess... it really seems like some designer was given a few pictures of stuff in The Netherlands and told to work it out.  They pulled out some details right, but they clearly didn't look at a video...

So - good detail: two-way cycle path, to save crossing over a very wide street.

But the junctions, the horror... the one at the foot of the walk is actively dangerous if you don't their intended line (e.g. you were heading north and then want to go west up Great Junction Street).  Some of them actually seem to keep cyclists waiting longer than any other mode.  If you obey the cycle lights (another detail from NL - looks like the pictures...)  Which none of the delivery cyclists who're the main cycling lifeform in the place do.

If I was from NL I'd recognise design elements.  I suspect they might ask "is this a wind-up?" though.  And be unable to believe it's been such an effort given it's one of the wider, straighter streets in the city and clearly a "place"...

London Road junction.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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OK, we've mentioned the C-word.  More road space than we know what to do with and yet it's still congested at the busy times?

Maybe more road isn't going to fix this?  Sounds crazy but perhaps try the opposite.  Maybe traffic evaporation is really a thing?  Could we... narrow the carriageway a bit and then use that to make some actual separate cycle path?

Yeah, this one's not exactly top Dutch quality; over-fussy, as if cyclists were simultaneously vulnerable as small children and also as unpredictably dangerous as old explosives - but it is separate and continuous, with forgiving kerbs, for a bit.

Portobello Road.

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TheBillder replied to chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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The road is more use than the cycling infrastructure here. I take this route home from work if I'm in a hurry or feeling lazy, but it's so fussy and fragmented, I always stay on the main carriageway, enjoying the slight downhill. Another instance of the design not really following how people want to use the outcome. Do these designers actually ride bicycles?

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chrisonabike replied to TheBillder | 8 months ago
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TheBillder wrote:

The road is more use than the cycling infrastructure here. [...]

Of course you're right.  You only get a few 100 metres of this then the middle section is just "road".  (The Fishwives Causeway "dodge the junction" at the East end is helpful; still have to wait to cross the main road though...)  OTOH it would be useful if it went all the way, road can get busy.

I have just reminded myself via Streetview.  I have to confess staying on the other side of town it's a road I rarely travel on, even less the whole thing.  (I didn't even spot the "update" until long after it happened).

This was the first bit of more recent infra I saw in Edinburgh which actually looked like a cycle path.  (There are of course the railway paths and a couple of surprisingly useful older bits).  However even what there is is a bit cargo-cult.  It could use being wider and it doesn't have full continuous cycleway treatment at side roads.  And too many "warning!  Cyclists here!" bits of paint.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Getting radical now, but what about... some public bike parking?

(Note: this isn't on the tram route - I checked, all the examples elsewhere were dug in not bolted down and the proper design with a bar across.  It's those tram-py billionaires who're making a nonsense of things, cheaping out on the Sheffield stands, ignoring the council's own "standard" etc.)

Also corner of Leith Links.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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A bit of mini-park?  Turns out that we have some massive open spaces in Edinburgh, we just can't see them for the vehicles.  But we also have some small areas where e.g. we've got more than double the road we need.  They won't notice it's gone!

Couple of planters, some space for kids...

North west corner of Leith Links.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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Or... how about some more space for the bins, and a bit of hopscotch?  It should take those proud in their nostalgia back to those days of kids playing in the streets in cobbled closes, jumpers for goalposts... A Britain (or even Scotland) we could be proud of, if that's the cut of your jib.

By Leith Links.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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A cycle lane?  Useless unless "mandatory", you better hope it has some "protection" and that's not actually a liability itself (Orcas or "aaarrrmadillos!").

Still, you'll find the odd car there, and quite often buses.  Or in the case of this one suddenly find a whole built-out bus stop appearing in place of your lane.  Junctions? Faggedaboudit...

London Road.

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TheBillder replied to chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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What's the solution here though? A floating stop as per the examples near road.cc towers in Bath? Or having the stop on the original pavement line?

This one seldom bothered me as there's little traffic at 0715 when I pass by - the unbelievably bad surface at East Norton Place a few metres to the east is way more of a problem - to the extent that I avoid the area entirely most mornings.

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chrisonabike replied to TheBillder | 8 months ago
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Floating bus stop seems a no-brainer*.  Space not an issue here.  Except... that would require a change to the carriageway!  I can't recall when the blocks went in here - was this covid-era "Spaces For People" or before?  If the former I think it was only planters and bolt-down blocks - only "no build" changes.

* All over the UK we seem to be frightened of these - presumably because "change" and "new".  (Although IIRC Ranty Highwayman found UK "prior art"?)  As a result we end up building some strange and overfussy stuff which might actually create problems.  I'm not a civil engineer (good news for all) but can't help thinking "just go and watch 4 minutes of video on the internet and you'd make a better job already".  Or maybe 15 minutes reading an actual UK highways engineer...

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TheBillder replied to chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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I'm pretty sure this was part of Spaces for People.

I'm not a fan of floating stops, because I think bus passengers (I'm sometimes one) tend to see their bus approaching and think of little else - certainly not an imminent cyclist. The current layout pushes the cyclist into the bus lane for a few metres, and I think that works ok. Certainly I'd rather ride here than on Leith Walk - like Hardknott, I rode it once and see no good reason to do so again...

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chrisonabike replied to TheBillder | 8 months ago
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TheBillder wrote:

I'm not a fan of floating stops, because I think bus passengers (I'm sometimes one) tend to see their bus approaching and think of little else - certainly not an imminent cyclist. The current layout pushes the cyclist into the bus lane for a few metres, and I think that works ok. Certainly I'd rather ride here than on Leith Walk - like Hardknott, I rode it once and see no good reason to do so again...

Hmm - this is part of that "change" bit though maybe?  People have got to adapt to changes - even if the end result is safer. (There apparently have been safety studies - I'm even aware of a (micro) Edinburgh study, there's a Cambridge one etc.)

Before we all do there will be some conflicts when either party is on autopilot.  I don't think the world will end but of course "learning" will involve some highly salient surprises and possibly even collisions.

Don't forget - we all had to learn to cross the roads once they became full of motor vehicles (and they're far wider and more dangerous).  Unfortunately pedestrians and cyclists are going to be the ones affected as always, not those in motor vehicles...

"tend to see their bus approaching and think of little else" - wouldn't that be entirely fixed by the style in the picture below?  When the bus is there, you're waiting on the bench / in that shelter.  No bikes to deal with at all.  Nor when you get off the bus - you're in a "safe area" and can cross the cycle path at leisure.  If you were running for the bus, yeah you've got to cross the cyclepath but that is not inconvenient and much less dangerous than e.g. running across a road.

The "suggest - or force - cyclists to move out into a lane of traffic", when a bus may be moving in the opposite direction?  Or suggest a cyclist pulls out round a waiting bus?  That really sounds like setting up crashes.  And a bus colliding with cyclist likely ends much worse than cyclist colliding with pedestrian.

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TheBillder replied to chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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The one in your picture would work for perhaps 6 passengers. At peak times, on roads carrying many bus routes, there can be many more, to the extent that footways can get completely blocked with a good old British Queue (adopt an Al Murray voice there) - ie an amorphous mass of people trying not to be late for work.

I still think that asking the cyclist to move into the bus lane is better, but admittedly I'm experienced in riding in traffic, have a mirror and ride at less busy times (early to work, late home) due to my erroneous belief that on my deathbed, I'll wish that I had spent more time at my desk...

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chrisonabike replied to TheBillder | 8 months ago
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TheBillder wrote:

The one in your picture would work for perhaps 6 passengers.

Eh?  Look at the length of that space?  Pretty sure you could fit a large fraction of a bus' worth of people there.

Now... would they?  I agree; less so initially!  The substratum of the Great British Queue still influences matters but it's easy to see the influence of the Continental Scrum at bus stops.

Again - the prickly truth is that no government is going to bring us all in for lessons and practice when things change in the public space.  So there will be a certain amount of time when people will be saying "I did what I always do but they had changed things and a cyclist nearly killed me / I couldn't get past a group of pedestrians who refused to move into "their" space etc.

However - that's part of the point of a good design.  Not only should it be ergnomic, safe and otherwise "good" once people "understand" it, it should guide people to use it in the correct way.  I think the best designs do (they're almost all Dutch - they've just been tested by the most for the longest).  This may be a danger with the UK importing things but trying to "fix it for UK users" - we lose the secret sauce which makes the original just work.

TheBillder wrote:

I still think that asking the cyclist to move into the bus lane is better, but admittedly I'm experienced in riding in traffic, have a mirror and ride at less busy times

Where you have buses you should have separate cycle tracks (the Dutch would say) so in a good system the point wouldn't arise.  For us... where we have installed protected cycle lanes it's because the road is busy.  (And the oft-stated, possibly overoptimistic rationale for them being there at all is for "less confident cyclists").  Roads are busy because they're useful e.g. they go where lots of people want to go, so we would expect the cycle lanes also to be used most heavily when there is most traffic e.g. rush hour!

TheBillder wrote:

(early to work, late home) due to my erroneous belief that on my deathbed, I'll wish that I had spent more time at my desk...

Like the IT professional who maintains having both a regular partner and a lover is ideal "so each thinks I've snuck off to see the other, and meanwhile I can spend the time coding..."

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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A bus lane.  Hmm... better make it 24 / 7.  And actually, it might need some bollards...

At Jock's Lodge.

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chrisonabike | 8 months ago
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An ASL and some tatty "advisory cycle lane".  This bit's actually just to access the ASL but you get the idea ("what is it good for?  Absolutely nothing!").

Here in Trinity.

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