Cyclist attacked with metal bar for stopping at zebra crossing

b1uen0se wrote:

I'm not at all condoning the actions of the driver but it was not the cyclist's job to verbally reprimand the driver

You do appear to be though. Or at least implying he deserved hitting on the head with a metal bar for daring to speak to the driver.

b1uen0se wrote:

If not prepared to literally stand and fight your corner, you just have to ignore it and cycle on.

Maybe consider condemning the physical assault rather than recommend a brawl might be better idea too.

atgni wrote:

b1uen0se wrote:

I'm not at all condoning the actions of the driver but it was not the cyclist's job to verbally reprimand the driver

You do appear to be though. Or at least implying he deserved hitting on the head with a metal bar for daring to speak to the driver.

b1uen0se wrote:

If not prepared to literally stand and fight your corner, you just have to ignore it and cycle on.

Maybe consider condemning the physical assault rather than recommend a brawl might be better idea too.

I am not condoning the actions of the driver and I am not implying that the cyclist derserved to be hit. If you read my previous post (and this response carefully), you will understand that. Condemning the assault seems so obvious, but, of course I condemn it.

I am arguing that if a cyclist decides to make a comment/gesture towards a driver about their driving, the cyclist must use their common sense and think: if I make a comment, what is likely to happen? What will be gained? The driver may ignore it and drive off. The driver may stop and agree that their driving was poor and apologise. The driver may respond negatively by verbally and/or physically harming the cyclist. Nobody wants that to happen but it is the most likely possibility and as this may result in the cyclist suffering severe injury or worse, surely the cyclist should do everything to avoid it happening?

Obviously, cyclists should not have to accept verbal and physcial assaults but in the short-term this is the world we (sadly) live in. Individual cyclists making comments to drivers in their own separate incidents will not change that driver's attitude or the attitude of drivers as a whole. That change will only come about through wider society and will probably take a generation or more. So by making a comment towards a driver, what do you hope to gain?

Your point about recommending a brawl was so typical of internet forum polemics and hyperbole that it was laughable. My point is that if you do make a comment towards a driver, you should be prepared for the driver to be mightily p!ssed off with a desire to hurt you. If you think that you can defend yourself, feel free to criticise drivers all day long. However, if you do not want a p!ssed off driver attacking you, don't make a comment.

If someone knocked into you in a pub and they did not apologise, you would make a careful judgement about whether to ignore it or speak to them based on how large/threatening/aggressive they and/or their friends were.

b1uen0se wrote:

My point is that if you do make a comment towards a driver, you should be prepared for the driver to be mightily p!ssed off with a desire to hurt you. If you think that you can defend yourself, feel free to criticise drivers all day long. However, if you do not want a p!ssed off driver attacking you, don't make a comment.

If someone knocked into you in a pub and they did not apologise, you would make a careful judgement about whether to ignore it or speak to them based on how large/threatening/aggressive they and/or their friends were.

Oh good, a world of fear where the bully wins and nothing ever changes. Each to their own.

atgni wrote:

b1uen0se wrote:

My point is that if you do make a comment towards a driver, you should be prepared for the driver to be mightily p!ssed off with a desire to hurt you. If you think that you can defend yourself, feel free to criticise drivers all day long. However, if you do not want a p!ssed off driver attacking you, don't make a comment.

If someone knocked into you in a pub and they did not apologise, you would make a careful judgement about whether to ignore it or speak to them based on how large/threatening/aggressive they and/or their friends were.

Oh good, a world of fear where the bully wins and nothing ever changes. Each to their own.

It's not a world of fear, rather it's a world of being realistic and putting one's personal safety above the desire to give a driver my point of view.

b1uen0se wrote:

Individual cyclists making comments to drivers in their own separate incidents will not change that driver's attitude or the attitude of drivers as a whole. That change will only come about through wider society and will probably take a generation or more. So by making a comment towards a driver, what do you hope to gain?
.

A succession of cyclists making comments to offending drivers, or posting videos, may well get it through the drivers's skulls that we won't tolerate their behaviour, and it may change their behaviour.

Why should we wait a generation, especially when people like you are saying don't do anything to antagonise them? Do you think that's how gay people, and women, and other oppressed groups won their rights? It is not. They won them by standing up for themselves at every opportunity.

I went to a boarding school where bullying was rife. If you stood up for yourself, as I did, it may have had the short term consequence of a punishment beating, but after that you were never bullied again, because it was not worth the bullies' trouble when there were plenty of willing victims around; if you did not stand up for yourself you spent the next few years cowering, living in fear and being regularly bullied.

I will stand up for myself, and others, whenever I need to.

ConcordeCX wrote:

b1uen0se wrote:

Individual cyclists making comments to drivers in their own separate incidents will not change that driver's attitude or the attitude of drivers as a whole. That change will only come about through wider society and will probably take a generation or more. So by making a comment towards a driver, what do you hope to gain?
.

A succession of cyclists making comments to offending drivers, or posting videos, may well get it through the drivers's skulls that we won't tolerate their behaviour, and it may change their behaviour.

Why should we wait a generation, especially when people like you are saying don't do anything to antagonise them? Do you think that's how gay people, and women, and other oppressed groups won their rights? It is not. They won them by standing up for themselves at every opportunity.

I went to a boarding school where bullying was rife. If you stood up for yourself, as I did, it may have had the short term consequence of a punishment beating, but after that you were never bullied again, because it was not worth the bullies' trouble when there were plenty of willing victims around; if you did not stand up for yourself you spent the next few years cowering, living in fear and being regularly bullied.

I will stand up for myself, and others, whenever I need to.

I have been driving cars for about 10 years and I love cars. I have been cycling for over 20 years and I love bikes. So I see the drivers/cyclists debate from both sides.

Making comments to offending drivers and posting videos will not get it "through their skulls". It has exactly the opposite of the desired effect because people hate being lectured to. This perception is not helped by too many cyclists going through red lights and riding down the inside of turning lorries, only to blame the lorry when they get hit. Of course, drivers are not perfect.

Cyclists with cameras are perceived as lecturing 'from up on high' and sometimes looking for trouble so that they can record it score views on YouTube (like the recent one where the the drivers takes a tumble - his overtake on the cyclist was marginal but it did not justify the cyclist confronting him like a self-appointed road-safety officer).

Effecting change will require the education of society as a whole - exactly what has led to the huge reduction (but not eradiaction) of racism, homophobia, etc.

As regards to standing up for yourself and others regarding the abuse of minorities, I'm completely with you. However, when it is you on your own, why would you want to take on an enraged driver? Especially when they have a 2 tonne weapon and you are balancing precariously on your cleats? If you can handle yourself, fine, but that is not the majority. You are more likely to end up on your backside or with a serious injury like the cyclist in the article. All for one pointless comment.

b1uen0se wrote:

[

I have been driving cars for about 10 years and I love cars. I have been cycling for over 20 years and I love bikes. So I see the drivers/cyclists debate from both sides.

Effecting change will require the education of society as a whole - exactly what has led to the huge reduction (but not eradiaction) of racism, homophobia, etc.
.

I don't know why you think the length of time you've been driving and cycling is relevant, but since you mention it I have been driving cars for 37 years and cycling for over 50.

Having established that I'm probably a good deal older than you are, why the f should I wait a generation for attitudes to change? I'll be dead by then.

I want change now, and so do all the people who'll be killed while they wait for your change somehow miraculously to happen without anyone actually doing anything. You're adopting the position of a victim.

ConcordeCX wrote:

b1uen0se wrote:

[

I have been driving cars for about 10 years and I love cars. I have been cycling for over 20 years and I love bikes. So I see the drivers/cyclists debate from both sides.

Effecting change will require the education of society as a whole - exactly what has led to the huge reduction (but not eradiaction) of racism, homophobia, etc.
.

I don't know why you think the length of time you've been driving and cycling is relevant, but since you mention it I have been driving cars for 37 years and cycling for over 50.

Having established that I'm probably a good deal older than you are, why the f should I wait a generation for attitudes to change? I'll be dead by then.

I want change now, and so do all the people who'll be killed while they wait for your change somehow miraculously to happen without anyone actually doing anything. You're adopting the position of a victim.

Years driving and cycling was purely to show that I am not biased in favour of drivers or cyclists.

We all want change. I am not stating that it will miraculously happen with people doing nothing. There is no silver bullet. It needs the education of society (probably with modifying the driving test). Chris Boardman's videos are a good start because motorists are more likely to listen to advice from an ex-pro champion cyclist. So education is how things will change.

Maybe this will take a generation, maybe it will be shorter. I sincerely hope for the latter.

However, this does not alter my view that there is nothing to be gained from verbally commenting to a driver in the heat of the moment when you think they have driven poorly. Do you really think the driver will apologise profusely and vow never to do it again? Or will they just be enraged even further and possibly want to knock you over/hit you/etc? That is the crux of it.

stockfast wrote:

Looking at the pictures in the linked article he was hit on the left side of his head so I would assume he was on the outside with the car on his left.
The article also stated that there were no CCTV cameras in the area.

The article is vague here: the cyclist left the zebra crossing from the right of the car (which indicates that someone was overtaking in the zig-zag area - not good), the motorist "let [him] go". The cyclist hasn't adjusted his road position if the motorist can pass on the left, to strike from the driver's window.

Can the police prosecute without a medical report? If this chap has declined to attend a hospital, he (or the police, if that was their advice) may be letting his case down.

stockfast wrote:

Looking at the pictures in the linked article he was hit on the left side of his head so I would assume he was on the outside with the car on his left.
The article also stated that there were no CCTV cameras in the area.

Look twice at the two pictures, one of them has been reversed suggesting the blow was in fact to the right hand side of his head (LH photo appears to be correct based on the logo on jacket, RH photo reversed based on position of chest pocket). I've been watching the Sherlock repeats, don't ya know...

EDIT: Message to self - look thrice; napoleon pockets are usually over the heart and the lettering I can see reads whether mirrored or not so, yep, left hand side of head. What did Sherlock know anyway

Jharrison5 wrote:

The driver may have been the real Mr Tickle: to reach from the drivers seat of his vehicle, out of the passenger window with a steering lock (70cm?

Yes. I did wonder how that part was achieved. The devil is in the details!

Dear Road.cc,

How about an article on:

a) the best 'helmet cams' for both affordability and usage (sports/protection)
b) an article on how to effectively use them.

I want to put something 'cheap' on me so that I can record my rides in the event of some such nonsense.

I also want to understand whether I need to keep deleting any memory card, where I should download the video all without incurring costs.

Yours

Colin

Contour Roam 2 cameras are good for helmet cams and Veho Muvi HD for rear cams as both last about 3 hours. GoPro cameras are more expensive but better quality. You can download the video to your computer and then delete the memory card on the camera and re-charge. Use Windows Live Movie Maker to make a video out of your footage.

balmybaldwin wrote:

This is the second time in 2 days I have heard of the Ambulance service failing to respond in anything like the right way following a cyclist being attacked or involved in a serious incident.

On Sunday a female cyclist was knocked off by a car in North London and had her legs impaled on her handlebars, and it took 1 hour for the Ambulance to be despatched, and it was then diverted to an "urgent" call and arrived 2 hours after the incident. (after the victims mother had arrived after a 90 minute drive in from Buckinghamshire!)

This is totally unacceptable, yet we aren't seeing any kind of campaign about it other than the story in yesterday's mail:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3202118/Gerald-Ratner-criticises...

You might find that the Ambulance service is stretched to breaking point because papers like the daily mail helped this Tory government get back in to a position to destroy the NHS

pmodern wrote:

Cameras are fine as long as the wearer doesn't see it as an excuse to get into an argument with anyone and everyone who comes close so they can become an overnight you-tube / FB sensation. There's way too much of this getting posted on FB and the like lately.

The other solution would be for drivers to start overtaking at a reasonable distances...

pmodern wrote:

Cameras are fine as long as the wearer doesn't see it as an excuse to get into an argument with anyone and everyone who comes close so they can become an overnight you-tube / FB sensation. There's way too much of this getting posted on FB and the like lately.

And that's how they're used by the overwhelming majority. Thousands and thousands of cyclists and motorcyclists are now using cameras, and there's only a handful of videos where you could describe the operator as being confrontational.

More obviously, most people with cameras don't upload or share at all. The camera is just there. Someone's recording of their ride to work is usually very uneventful and rather boring.

Cameras help me avoid arguments now. I just cycle on and roadsafe/ form207 them as applicable..