France makes cycle helmets compulsory for children aged 11 and under

Mungecrundle wrote:

"This is such a surprisingly difficult issue to find reliable evidence in support of either side of the argument or even if you come to it with a genuinely open mind."

Only someone who hasn't looked at the evidence, or is trying to muddy the waters would claim that it is difficult to find reliable evidence.  There is plenty of evidence, some showing massive benefits and some showing either no benefit or an increase in risk with helmet wearing.  There are international scales for the reliablilty of research, and that showing massive benefits is rated lowest because of its methodology, whilst that showing no benefit is rated as much more reliable.  Anyone with an open mind would surely be more convinced by the reliable evidence.

"There are dozens of studies (see ROSPA site) that conclude cycle helmets can reduce head, brain and facial injuries."

RoSPA is famous for cherry-picking research which supports their view that helmets work, ignoring that evidence which shows they don't work, and is anything but a reliable source of evidence.

"Maybe this is where the discrepancy with all the ‘helmet saved my life’ anecdotes lurks."

The number of people claiming that a helmet saved their life is many times more than the death rate of cyclists, so unless putting a helmet on makes you many times more likely to be involved in a life-threatening collision, they cannot be true.  http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1209.html

"My personal repertoire is 2 broken lid incidents that I limped away from but without head injury and watching a cyclist die from a depressed skull fracture which may, may, may have been mitigated had she been wearing a helmet."

Nice anecdotes supporting helmet use whilst claiming to be open minded.

"And there are of course the vested interests. The libertarians on one side who resent anything that smells of nanny state and restrictions on freedom, and commercial organisations who want to sell safety equipment to name but two."

I've never heard anyone say that they don't want to wear a helmet because it is an infringement of their liberties, only that they won't wear one because all the reliable evidence shows them not to be effective, so you are misrepresenting those opposed to helmets laws.

"So are helmets affective at reducing the chances of death or serious injury from head trauma?"

All the reliable evidence shows that they do not reduce the death rate of cyclists.

 

Yorkshire wallet wrote:

This site is unusual in that it clearly doesn't reflect the reality I seem to be seeing on the roads. Most people on road bikes seem to be wearing helmets and will pay handsomly to do so.

Just because someone objects to uncritical helmet promotion and advocacy or to suggestions of legal enforcement of helmet use, doesn't mean they never wear one! I more-often-than-not, do so when cycling (and when meeting hard-line helmet-fans, as their tendency to make arguments involving thought-experiments about hitting people over the head with assorted objects makes me nervous around them).

Judge dreadful wrote:

Of course you have to bear in mind that there is no scientific proof that wearing a lid affects the outcome of any collision of a riders head with a solid object, much as there is no scientific proof that sticking your hand in a food blender and switching said blender on, will have a detrimental effect on your ability to write with the hand that you shoved in the blender. There are no statistics, no studies have ever been done.

Are you new to the helmet debate?  Or a troll perhaps?

There are many studies, the largest and most reliable show that, at best, there is no benefit from helmet wearing, and at worst, an increase in risk.

Take a look at cyclehelmets.org

Judge dreadful wrote:

Of course you have to bear in mind that there is no scientific proof that wearing a lid affects the outcome of any collision of a riders head with a solid object, much as there is no scientific proof that sticking your hand in a food blender and switching said blender on, will have a detrimental effect on your ability to write with the hand that you shoved in the blender. There are no statistics, no studies have ever been done.

Of course you have to bear in mind that there is no scientific proof that wearing a lid affects the outcome of any collision of a runner/walker's/car-passenger's/someone having a shower's head with a solid object, much as there is no scientific proof that sticking your hand in a food blender and switching said blender on, will have a detrimental effect on your ability to write with the hand that you shoved in the blender. There are no statistics, no studies have ever been done.

The quesion is how likely is it your head will do that, and whether banging on about helmets is likely to have more adverse concequences that you haven't accounted for.

Natrix wrote:

I wonder what the other 25 measures are?  I hope that they are going to introduce a proper ban for people caught drunk driving, at the moment they can still drive a car (albeit one with a smaller cc) which they can (and often do) drive around whilst drunk as a skunk....

I checked the other measures for you (I am French, living in the UK). It is a very rough translation, but it will do for now:

- more speed cameras and fake speed cameras to be installed
- use of drones to read number plates rather than helicopters
- driving without a licence is now a specific crime (not sure what it was before)
- now need to show your insurance papers when getting a new number plate done
- stopping cars from working without the use of a breathalysers if you were caught drink driving before and if you need your licence in the course of your work (truck drivers etc). I guess it means adding some kind of electronic reader to the vehicle.
- making gloves mandatory for motor bikers
- some kind of extra training for motorbikes over 56cv
- creation of a database of all speed limit across the country
- making it mandatory for a employer to report an employee that broke the highway code
- allowing employers to check that the employee’s driving licence are still valid

If you can read French, enjoy: http://www.legipermis.com/blog/2015/10/02/les-22-mesures-du-cisr-du-0210...

marionr wrote:

I checked the other measures for you (I am French, living in the UK).

If you can read French, enjoy: http://www.legipermis.com/blog/2015/10/02/les-22-mesures-du-cisr-du-0210...

Thanks Marion, my French isn't great but it was an interesting read. 

Padraic wrote:

Having been judo thrown from my bike (never carry bags on handlebars that could get caught in your front wheel kids!), landing on my bonce and cracking my Kask, I can still write on a keyboard , and walk and go about my everyday life.

Without that Kask (may it rest in peace) I doubt very much I would be able to do that.

As for this theory that you take more risks with a helmet than without - well all I can say is I am as much of scaredy cat with a helmet as without, in fact I have always been adverse to scraping up my knees, or buggering up my wrists as landing on my head.

Same wearing a helmet skiing - something I resisted a lot longer than on a bike, that hasn't increased my "dare devil" nature; but keeps my ears warm.

Living in France they havent got a hope in hell of making this law stick though.

How do you know that your risk-taking isn't increased? Seems to me that carrying bags on handlebars is a pretty risky thing to do, as borne out by the risk actually materialising in a nasty off.

It's good that you walked away from it, but all of these 'it would have been worse' assertions do not amount to evidence, and the studies aren't conclusive either way.

Padraic wrote:

As for this theory that you take more risks with a helmet than without - well all I can say is I am as much of scaredy cat with a helmet as without, in fact I have always been adverse to scraping up my knees, or buggering up my wrists as landing on my head.

But that's you! Nobody is saying you should be banned from wearing a helmet (unless it covers the face, I suppose, whereupon the control-freak French authorities would presumably arrest you for wearing it).

For laws that apply to an entire population the appropriate factor is not what _you_ do, it's what the aggregate effect on that population would be. So your argument isn't relevant to the issue.

Padraic wrote:

Having been judo thrown from my bike (never carry bags on handlebars that could get caught in your front wheel kids!), landing on my bonce and cracking my Kask, I can still write on a keyboard , and walk and go about my everyday life.

Without that Kask (may it rest in peace) I doubt very much I would be able to do that.

As for this theory that you take more risks with a helmet than without - well all I can say is I am as much of scaredy cat with a helmet as without, in fact I have always been adverse to scraping up my knees, or buggering up my wrists as landing on my head.

Same wearing a helmet skiing - something I resisted a lot longer than on a bike, that hasn't increased my "dare devil" nature; but keeps my ears warm.

Living in France they havent got a hope in hell of making this law stick though.

Unless you're Inspector Clousaeu and you're bike is Cato, it didn't judo throw you.

There are many cases of similar incidents to yours where a helmet did not prevent serious brain damage.

The thing about risk compensation is that it is entirely subconcious and people don't realise it's happening.  While I was doing research for my dissertation on cycle helmets, I asked half a dozen helmet wearers to make their normal journey without a helmet, and to report back about how long the journey took and how careful they were.  All of them stated vehemenlty that it would make no difference and their behaviour would not change, but they all reported feeling much more vulnerable and the journey time increased because they were taking more care.  Try it yourself.

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

I find that a jockstrap is more useful, and would also give me more confidence desending, though I don't wear one as a general rule due to chafing. To each their own!

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

Thanks for summing up the risk compensation argument against helmets.

Helmets are flimsy bits of plastic offering very limited protection.  Anyone who goes faster, take more risks or otherwise changes their behaviour, will overwhelm that limited protection, and this seems to be what happens in practice.

Helmet wearing cyclists have more collisions, and helmet wearing has never been shown to reduce the risks of cycling.  The only proven effects of helmet laws is to reduce the number of cyclists, increasing the risk to those that are left.  Children have been strangled by helmet straps but there is no proven case of a helmet saving a life.  Obesity, largely caused by lack of exercise, kills many thousands more people than cycle helmets possibly could save.

Yeah, sure, we want to make sure French children have that feeling.

cyclehelmets.org

burtthebike wrote:

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

Thanks for summing up the risk compensation argument against helmets.

Helmets are flimsy bits of plastic offering very limited protection.  Anyone who goes faster, take more risks or otherwise changes their behaviour, will overwhelm that limited protection, and this seems to be what happens in practice.

Helmet wearing cyclists have more collisions, and helmet wearing has never been shown to reduce the risks of cycling.  The only proven effects of helmet laws is to reduce the number of cyclists, increasing the risk to those that are left.  Children have been strangled by helmet straps but there is no proven case of a helmet saving a life.  Obesity, largely caused by lack of exercise, kills many thousands more people than cycle helmets possibly could.

Yeah, sure, we want to make sure French children have that feeling.

cyclehelmets.org

I think you have not seen my helmet! Firsts it is aerodynamisch which is actually helping to go faster more safely by reducing distracting drag and destabilising vortex. Second it cost my colleague a lot of money and has MIPS system which is disappation of energy in extreme condition. Third i have not been obese or even overweights in the last 4 years. BUT if i had known about this benefit of helmets while i was obese AND/OR overweights then I would definitely have worn the helmet while losing weight and still lost weight at same rate but more safely.

WIN/WIN. I can not see any down sides

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

No it didn't allow you to gain more speed, you felt more confident and allowed yourself to gain more speed. If you investigate the topic on cycling injuries, you may be surprised to learn that head injuries figure  in comparatively few crashes. If you really want to give yourself protection, rather than a misplaced confidence in a  flimsy bit of plastic on your head designed to protect in crashes up to 12mph, you might want to invest in body armour and full shin protection as worn by most  BMX racers and MTB racers.

Most cycling injuries are to the limbs. The body armour and shin protection will actually help you, rather than giving the illusion of doing so.

And if you really want to protect your head properly, buy a BMX/MTB style full face helmet and preferably one that can also be used for riding a motorcycle. It'll actually protect you, rather than giving you the illusion of protection like the bit of plastic you currently use.

OldRidgeback wrote:

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

 

No it didn't allow you to gain more speed, you felt more confident and allowed yourself to gain more speed. If you investigate the topic on cycling injuries, you may be surprised to learn that head injuries figure  in comparatively few crashes....

I think your irony detector might need recalibrating

graham_f wrote:

OldRidgeback wrote:

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

 

No it didn't allow you to gain more speed, you felt more confident and allowed yourself to gain more speed. If you investigate the topic on cycling injuries, you may be surprised to learn that head injuries figure  in comparatively few crashes....

I think your irony detector might need recalibrating

I hope so... I think Schweiz might be a work of ironic genius - they even threw in MIPS.

The skeptic in me is furiously facepalming, though...

davel wrote:

graham_f wrote:

OldRidgeback wrote:

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

 

No it didn't allow you to gain more speed, you felt more confident and allowed yourself to gain more speed. If you investigate the topic on cycling injuries, you may be surprised to learn that head injuries figure  in comparatively few crashes....

I think your irony detector might need recalibrating

I hope so... I think Schweiz might be a work of ironic genius - they even threw in MIPS.

The skeptic in me is furiously facepalming, though...

I think you have not seen his helmet!

beezus fufoon wrote:

davel wrote:

graham_f wrote:

OldRidgeback wrote:

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

 

No it didn't allow you to gain more speed, you felt more confident and allowed yourself to gain more speed. If you investigate the topic on cycling injuries, you may be surprised to learn that head injuries figure  in comparatively few crashes....

I think your irony detector might need recalibrating

I hope so... I think Schweiz might be a work of ironic genius - they even threw in MIPS.

The skeptic in me is furiously facepalming, though...

I think you have not seen his helmet!

Does thinking about it a lot count?

graham_f wrote:

OldRidgeback wrote:

Schweiz wrote:

I received helmet for my christmas gift from colleague this year. Worn it four times out of four rides. NO ACCIDENT so far but I feel many times safer and this is allowing me to gain more speed on downs. Hope never will have collision but now I know this helmet will help.

 

Let us also offer this good feeling to children in France.

 

No it didn't allow you to gain more speed, you felt more confident and allowed yourself to gain more speed. If you investigate the topic on cycling injuries, you may be surprised to learn that head injuries figure  in comparatively few crashes....

I think your irony detector might need recalibrating

Could be,  the Swiss humour may not have translated well.