Telegraph publishes "dossier of collision data" involving "rogue cyclists" in London parks, as Royal Parks continues campaign for new laws to prosecute 'speeding' cyclists

Amazing that I've been cycling in Richmond Park for 45 years and still visit regularly and I've never once seen a cyclist scream, spit at or threaten anyone else, cyclist, pedestrian or driver. Absuive, well yes I have heard the odd one shout "fuck off" to drivers close passing them at speed, I may even have done that myself on occasion, it's quite hard to keep one's temper completely under control when somebody is doing things that could kill you. I do agree that some of the weekend racers do take far too many chances with the downhill overtakes and I also agree that with the trend for gravel bikes and e-mountain bikes it may be time something was done about cycling on the shared path (Tamsin Trail), whether more signage, more close monitoring or even perhaps a gravel cycle trail running alongside the extant path. 

Kudos on the last sentence, it's good of you to give an indicator of quite how out of touch with reality you are; I've never seen anyone, not even the most virulent of pro-motorist anti-cyclist park users, seriously suggest that bicycles should be banned from the park. 

Yep, green over the whole park, remove the road, except for access for park maintainence. No road vehicles or bicycles. Would be brilliant. A nice calm, green space for everyone to enjoy rather than as a rat run for cars or a race track for rich people on bikes. In fact I'd probably put in some kind of tarmacced paths for disabled people who use wheelchairs. I'd priotise those people over aggressive estate agents in lycra. 
And I'm simply astonished - incredulous in fact - that a member of the cycling lobby has only witnessed the most mild kinds of poor behaviour from other cyclists! It's almost as if you are blinkered, unable to be objective or just like to lie about stuff. 
The other option would be Danish/Dutch style enforcement for cyclists which in those countries includes - spot fines imposed regularly, enforced use of cycle lanes, no two abreast when vehicles are behind and a visible registration number, speed limits etc. I mean the cycle lobby in the UK are always saying they want a Danish/Dutch style cycling environment. I fully agree. 

Dougal McFougal wrote:

Yep, green over the whole park, remove the road, except for access for park maintainence. No road vehicles or bicycles.

Well that would be nice.  Tell me now though, what are you going to do about the people who want to drive there? I can't quote you numbers but it wouldn't surprise me if the majority of people drive to the park.  So they're either going to be trying to park on the roads around (which is going to block the buses and taxis) or on side-streets, which is going to have the local residents (who almost certainly walk to the park) on your back.

I'm a bit confused about the "quiet" in relation to bikes though - but perhaps people are racing through there, ringing their bells?

Dougal McFougal wrote:

In fact I'd probably put in some kind of tarmacced paths for disabled people who use wheelchairs. I'd priotise those people over aggressive estate agents in lycra.

You better do so, else you're also going to be fighting accessibility cases in the courts.  Plus those disabled people are - currently - likely going to be driving there (perhaps via taxis); see above about parking again.

The vast majority of people who visit Richmond Park don't drive there. I'm not sure the "you can't park a car so no-one will go there" argument holds either. After all the Natural History Museum doesn't have a car park and gets plenty of visitors. I take your point re: access - a car park for the disabled is a good idea. 
The "quiet" was in relation to the lack of road vehicles (should be obvs) and the "calm" was in relation to the lack of roid-rage estate agents racing on their £4k bikes which they brought to the park on the roof of their SUV. 

Well I defer to your local knowledge.  I note that Richmond Park apparently has quite a few parking spaces (7 car parks - numbers here suggests possible >1000 spaces but not sure if that's reliable.  Aside from that I've only childhood memories to go on!   And with a tiny smattering of blue badge ones, even though there is a dedicated disabled-only car park).

The Natural History Museum is near the centre of a major city, with fantastic public transport links including a tube line about 100m away.  And it's actually a bit less convenient to drive there.  So not really comparing similar things.

You clearly have had some "bad cyclist" experience though - as always a shame if a few spoil it for the many, as it were.

Dougal McFougal wrote:

The other option would be Danish/Dutch style enforcement for cyclists which in those countries includes - spot fines imposed regularly, enforced use of cycle lanes, no two abreast when vehicles are behind and a visible registration number, speed limits etc. I mean the cycle lobby in the UK are always saying they want a Danish/Dutch style cycling environment. I fully agree. 

Careful what you wish for!

I would suggest you first actually pay a visit to the Netherlands then, or Copenhagen (actually other parts of Denmark / Sweden are arguably better the Copenhagen in some ways).  Even from the comfort of your computer.

Here are a couple of helpful places where you can do so:

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/

https://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/

I suggest you ask locals about "enforced use of cycle lanes, no two abreast when vehicles are behind and a visible registration number, speed limits".  That will give them a laugh at least.

(It is true that you are required - in certain circumstances - to use the cycle path provided in NL.  However I think it's more like if you ride on roads where you shouldn't the drivers will let you know in traditional fashion you should be "op de fietspad"!)

It seems you may have an "abreast fixation"?  In this case you may find the following triggering e.g. here, or here...

If you go - in reality or virtually - you'll find it a very pleasant experience.  After the few days it may take you to "learn the rules of the road" when it seems like chaos of course.  Because now there is motor traffic, there are trams, pedestrians and cyclists each with their spaces and rules.  And the latter groups aren't "just waiting patiently" either.

Yes - you will find some enforcement of people breaking cycling rules.  But - like the roads here - not much.  And (also per reports from people who actually live there and post here) you will no doubt be horrified at the "free and easy" attitude towards regulations you'll see!  Because exactly the same kind of everyone (more or less careful / inclined to obey all the rules) you find walking and driving in the UK will also sometimes be cycling over there.  And they're pretty relaxed when doing so, as they're rarely "in heavy traffic" and almost never "with fast cars".

Lived, worked and cycled in both Denmark and Netherlands so don't need to look at your google search results. Thanks though. Was actually a bit of a shock to cycle in both after London/UK cycling as it was the other cyclists on my back when I cycled like I do in the UK. Even stuff like doing a left turn (equivalent to a right turn in the UK) was weird in Denmark - you're not supposed to make said turn and have to go to the opposite side and wait for the traffic to stop, then cross. Then the way cyclists in Copenhagen observe the safety of shared spaces with peds, at floating bus stops etc. All the cyclists stop and if you don't you'll have them on your back. Also the VIN number on the bikes - very good way to reduce theft. So so different to the UK. But then cycling is seen as a grown up form of transport in those countries rather than a way for middle class middle aged blokes to relive their adolescence and desperately seek out their last bastion of entitlement. It's a shame really as it's allowed an anti-cycling narrative to take hold way too easily. 

Dougal McFougal wrote:

Lived, worked and cycled in both Denmark and Netherlands so don't need to look at your google search results. Thanks though.

I'm glad you've had the chance to enjoy those places.  But in that case what were you talking about with the "enforced use of cycle lanes, no two abreast when vehicles are behind and a visible registration number, speed limits" stuff then?

(The Danish VIN number is just a theft-deterrent as I understand it.  Given this apparently could be on the bottom bracket it's not exactly "visible" in the same way as a car numberplate - and the existence of those doesn't exactly seem to trouble criminals...).

Dougal McFougal wrote:

Was actually a bit of a shock to cycle in both after London/UK cycling as it was the other cyclists on my back when I cycled like I do in the UK. Even stuff like doing a left turn (equivalent to a right turn in the UK) was weird in Denmark - you're not supposed to make said turn and have to go to the opposite side and wait for the traffic to stop, then cross.

Yeah - I believe Denmark is still distinctly second-rate for cycling compared to NL (although no doubt they're improving) and the "Copehagen left" is not something we should aim to import here (but we have, and e.g. here in Edinburgh we've been "treated" to this.  Better than before?  I'd say not much...).

Dougal McFougal wrote:

Then the way cyclists in Copenhagen observe the safety of shared spaces with peds, at floating bus stops etc. All the cyclists stop and if you don't you'll have them on your back. Also the VIN number on the bikes - very good way to reduce theft. So so different to the UK.

As above - there are UK schemes for registering your bike.  I'm interested to know how much that actually affects rates of theft and/or recovery?  That comes down how much the police care / resources, then things like the type of bike that is left about the place and how easy it is to secure bikes, no?  I'm not knowledgable about Denmark in this respect but NL at least has mandated provision of bike storage in residential places for quite some time, plus recently has done a rush of building high-quality public bike garages - likely mostly to avoid the streets being clogged with hundreds or thousands of parked bikes.

Dougal McFougal wrote:

But then cycling is seen as a grown up form of transport in those countries rather than a way for middle class middle aged blokes to relive their adolescence and desperately seek out their last bastion of entitlement. It's a shame really as it's allowed an anti-cycling narrative to take hold way too easily. 

You get what you plan and provide for.  Both countries (and indeed even lesser cycling places like parts of Germany) understand cycling as a normal, mainstream transport mode.

"grown up" - it sounds like you've bought into that narrative yourself pretty heavily.  But ... perhaps it's just London, or your part of London?  Staying in Edinburgh that's not really been my experience - or elsewhere in the UK in fact.  Although on a visit down south to the Bristol to Bath path I did have a roadie chastise me for not holding my line.  People eh?

You sound like another person who doesn't know Richmond Park. Many people talk of cyclists moderating their behaviour as if the park is akin to a municipal urban park in which cyclists most certainly should slow down virtually to walking pace when there are pedestrians about. However, Richmond Park is better thought of as a large piece of countryside with roads running through it that just happens, fortuitously and delightfully, to be plonked down in the middle(ish) of a great city. There is no reason for pedestrians to be on the roads in the park apart from when crossing them and so no reason for cyclists to behave differently (or need different regulation) to the way they would on any other road.

I can vouch for this.  Priory Lane for example runs from the junction with the A205 all the way to Stag Lodge.

Also, just to prove it is a public road, the police are equally as unlikely to prosecute a close pass on any part of Priory Lane, whether in the park or not.

Rendel Harris wrote:

large piece of countryside with roads running through it

And it is only relatively recently that it ceased to be possible for motor vehicles to drive all the way around the park on those public roads.

well no, there isnt a pavement in Richmond Park, so cyclists and pedestrians are sharing the same space. It's quite busy at times, so not really comparable to belting down a country B road without a pedestrian for miles, if at all. It isnt hard to show a little consideration as a cyclist.

There are footpaths running alongside all the roads. There is no reason for pedestrians to be walking along the roads and in fact none of them do, they use the footpaths. You sound like another who doesn't actually know the park at all.

Even a slow cyclist can seem fast to somebody who is standing still and not expecting to see a bike.

Also if you're being told they are too fast, then you'll perceive then as such. As not local I don't know how many electric mopeds are increasing that perception.

Never cycled in Richmond Park myself but I reckon my core fitness stopped a bowel cancer breaking out of my stomach for long enough in my late 30s / early 40s, and because I was in good shape when it was dignosed I was in and out and on the road to recovery in no time.   Just before I could barely cycle up a slope either.

It's like the joke, isn't it?

Man: "CAN I GET TWO FISH SUPPERS PLEASE!"

Person behind counter: "Excuse me - but this is a library!"

Man: "Oh, sorry!" *whispers* "Can I get two fish suppers, please?"

In a way, it illustrates how the matter is perceived, doesn't it?  Mr Grossman clearly sees the management of the Royal Parks and all of the traffic therein as a matter for tourism not a matter for transport.

Or maybe it reflects the fact that the governance of the royal parks lies with DCMS, not DfTransport. So I think it more reflects that these are weird places, rather than anything else.

Well if they're doing leisure laps and not going from A to B on meaningful journeys... 

Like going to a cello lesson?

Pub bike wrote:

Any debate about the dangers of cycling should collapse as soon as motor traffic KSI stats and the overwhelming health benefits of cycling are considered.

Yes, where are the same figures for drivers, Telegraph?